How do I get girls at work that I like?

[TomInHo]

I see it little bit differently. The quality of women in US is in my opinion low. Once she is 30s she is usually 20-30 pounds overweight, have children, divorced, and who knows how many guys she slept with on the side.

What world are you living in?

Bro please stop living your life through a screen and actually go outside. There are a lot of women overm30 years old that are very attractive and have no kids

She is influenced by feminism so she doesn’t value men in general.

This is bullshit. To be honest most men simply suck and it has very little to do with feminism

It's usually the unattractive girls that hold feminist beliefs while the very attractive ones tend to think that shit is retarded. If you interacted with enough women rather than watching BS content online you will know this

Hot attractive women of all ages have very little problem getting quality guys to want to take care of them, so they have no reason to be a feminist

She is entitled, she might be 6 but is demanding 10

Again with the nonsense. Most women know how attractive they really are and if she is demanding a 10 its just posturing. When you see the kind of guys she really gets with you'll notice they tend to not match anything on her dumb checklist

Also when that 6 meets a guy that's a legit 10 she will most likely self sabotage the situation because she deep down knows she can't keep up with a man like that

Hence why those types of women tend to die alone or are saddled with a man that is weak that they despise. Because frankly they get what they deserve

Do I want to learn some top seduction skills to sleep with bunch of woman like that?

Who said you have to learn seduction to attract that?

Isn't the whole point of learning this stuff to attract the women you really desire?

I don’t think so. So make no mistake, I could teach you lots of red pill. On the other hand just because somebody is looking for more stable relationship, with decent, good looking and conservative women who didn't sleep much around and who has to offer way more than sex to man’s life doesn’t necessary mean that it’s a blue pill either.

This explains everything

Stop watching rep pill content. It's made by a bunch of dudes that have little to no game that constantly complain about why women don't do what they want or act like perfect angels

Because let me tell you a secret. Guys that are great with women don't have time to complain about them. They are too busy giving and receiving orgasms, accepting gifts and favors from their lovers and overall having too much fun to care about dumb shit like that

Never take advice from people you would not switch places with

 

[Mali]

If you don't believe there are some men who are very experienced in this field, and capable of learning this as an art, in such a way that it can break social conventions, and have a real influence on girls, then why are you here?

Curious question.

Best,
Teevster

Honestly I'm frustrated. I'm single guy, I would say decent looking, good provider position (money, social ladder), I know decent game, overall I believe good sexual market value. I can't get a good woman for relationship. If I'm 7.5-8, I can get easily 5-6. I'm just not interested though, maybe some 7 would do it. 7-8 is way harder. 8.5-9 for me is impossible. I know these are subjective scales but I know how I feel overall about woman I meet.

 

[Teevster]

I know decent game, overall I believe good sexual market value. I can't get a good woman for relationship. If I'm 7.5-8, I can get easily 5-6.

Then you do not know decent game, and shouldn't make speculations about what veterans are and are not capable of as per your previous comment.

8-9 will be impossible... because you clearly do not want to seek the field experience that will grant you the skillset to be able to get the girls you truly desire. But hey you don't want my advice, and insist on being right, so good luck to you.

Best,
Teevster

 

[ulrich]

Why you can’t get a 9-10? Are you even gaming them often?

I used to be in a similar situation and it fixed once I quit Tinder… the app where no true 10 hangs out and women are excessively entitled.

 

[Skills]

Why you can’t get a 9-10? Are you even gaming them often?

I used to be in a similar situation and it fixed once I quit Tinder… the app where no true 10 hangs out and women are excessively entitled.

Yeah i bet you he is stuck in apps and being punish by algorithms getting all delusional 5 profiles.... also guys with a negative believes such as his, project a self fullfillung negative reality...

 

[Mali]

@Mali,

Most of these women strike me as more sexually/romantically experienced than you.
If it was the other way around, you'd be owning the frame and laying them.
But your attempts to seduce are either going nowhere or stopping at LMR, and your attempts at controlling the frame are being evaded.
The married ones I can't say for sure, but I wonder what situation you're meeting them in that so many different guys are taking shots at them, and you are knowing how those shots unfold. They sound like they're putting themselves out there / making themselves available -- if they are, then they are on the market... and newsflash with taken women on the market, they are going to tend to advertise the guys they reject (makes them look more loyal/chaste), meanwhile any guys they cheat with you are not going to know about it; that is not something they will advertise.

Anyway you also say this:



Well, somehow or other you are going to need to get your experience levels up if you want to get girls like the ones you're after.

You don't have to become a super seducer, but you do need to raise your level of sexual and romantic experience.

So long as you're pursuing these women who are more experienced than you are and/or unavailable/married women, you are going to struggle.

Rather than worrying about finding the highest of high quality girls to get your initial practice with, I would suggest you start here:

Lower Your Standards (and Date Hotter Girls)

In "How Much Do Looks Matter for Romantic Success?," Balla asks whether to lower your standards in pursuit of getting the best results with women achievable: “Hey Chase, I can agree with everything you wrote to a T. What I want to ask about is this. You say naturals are better to learn from...

www.girlschase.com

Chase

Thank you for your time Chase.

All these are work experiences lasting couple months, except women A and B they happened at different times and different places. It’s not easy to say if these women were just joking around or putting themselves out, my best guest is both and see where it goes.

Chase: Most of these women strike me as more sexually/romantically experienced than you. If it was the other way around, you'd be owning the frame and laying them. But your attempts to seduce are either going nowhere or stopping at LMR, and your attempts at controlling the frame are being evaded.

Two of these I met were very family oriented, and this was happening in their environment, in towns where they lived and around people they knew (at work). I don’t believe neither of them had many partners or boyfriends. The other one who was divorcing (I called her A above) was more sexually liberated, she likely had way more experience than me. She told me openly about her having multiple partners in the past. She clearly held the frame as you said, though I held mine too, refusing being provider. She tried to friend zone me once, I ignored it and walked away on the spot, and she was back in 2 days with lots of excitement. In retrospect, I think I were lined up as a replacement for a guy she was divorcing, except I I got tired waiting and went totally cold. I pulled back which was a huge mistake. She created unbelievable drama, quit her work and went back to her marriage. Quite unpleasant end. Prior to the end she was very mature, acted quite aloof most of the time with spikes of interest, but her drama in the end tells me she was quite emotionally involved. Women who don’t care have no reason to act like that. I learned a lot from this interaction.

The B girl described above was inexperienced, she didn’t have the vibes dating many men, average provider frame was all it would take to end up in long term. I think she is still available, still seeking a great provider (guy like me, lol). I'm thinking about contacting her, see where she stands.

The last one I described as gem, I am simply puzzled. She has great looks, she is purely focused on work. I was told by coworkers that she only dated briefly, she ended it up months ago and that she is available. You can picture my jaw dropping, especially when there are no other single guys around, so I have no competition. You can also picture my frustration for exactly the same reason. I believe I have decent SMV, good position and money for provider style, decent game, I'm in great shape, but I just can't move forward, she blocked every of my moves. I have reasons to believe she is looking for LTR.

I am trying to convince myself that she has lots of sexual experience, maybe even she is so called alpha widow, but I just can’t find a single clue that would point in that direction. I’m only finding the exact opposite, she is very conservative and from conservative background. She is very ambiguous about possible dating, talk about frustration again. I don't think she friend zoned me, at least not in her words or behavior. As I learned mainly from woman B, patience and distance are golden no matter what is happening, a woman that is really interested will always come back. Options you guys are offering is to walk away and focus on other girls. It make a lot of sense but do I really want to do it?

 

[Mali]

Yeah i bet you he is stuck in apps and being punish by algorithms getting all delusional 5 profiles.... also guys with a negative believes such as his, project a self fullfillung negative reality...

What makes you think aiming for relationship is negative? I am simply not interested in banging 5-6. 7 is not that exiting to me either. Being alone sucks, I don't even have time or mood to run around and look for girls. I prefer one stable relationship, good conversations, dining, trips. you know, all the boring stuff called life

 

[Chase]

@Mali,

Okay, a few important things to highlight:

All these are work experiences lasting couple months

When it's social circle, and especially when it's work, women hit the brakes hard. Going too far with just one wrong guy can completely wreck their reputations and screw their whole lives up. The chance a guy is The One < the possible damage to her life if he turns out to be just another guy and goes ape.

Every workplace guy gets slow-gamed... every guy from her workplace, that is (she will still be moving at 'normal speed' with men she meets outside of work).

It is possible to be the guy who beds girls quick at work (then keeps them, if he wants to), but most guys will struggle with this. Personally I always found it tough to do unless you were on your way out / had already left the job, and were meeting up with a girl there was no longer that reason for her to be cautious any longer.

It’s not easy to say if these women were just joking around or putting themselves out, my best guest is both and see where it goes.

That's how women do things.

If she isn't interested at all, she won't put it out there at all.

It's deliberately ambiguous, that way if it doesn't work out she can withdraw her attempt and if any guy tries to nail her down over it say, "I don't know what he means! I was just being friendly! Sheesh, men!"

Two of these I met were very family oriented, and this was happening in their environment, in towns where they lived and around people they knew (at work). I don’t believe neither of them had many partners or boyfriends.

Sound like small-town girls on a faster life trajectory (get serious faster / marry sooner).

You can bed these girls quick too but you need to be able to break that frame and pull them into yours. That takes finesse to be able to do.

The other option is to do what a lot of the guys these girls end up with in LTRs do, which is just be a part of their lives for long enough while making moves until they end up together. That is going to be difficult for you though if you do not live in their towns (sounds like you don't).

Either way, these are girls you weren't really in the position to get -- you're not at the point where you can pick them up quick, and you're not around them enough for a long-enough timeline (sounds like) that more traditional social circle game will work.

Bit of a case of "look, but don't touch" give the combination of your skill level + logistics.

The other one who was divorcing (I called her A above) was more sexually liberated, she likely had way more experience than me. She told me openly about her having multiple partners in the past. She clearly held the frame as you said, though I held mine too, refusing being provider. She tried to friend zone me once, I ignored it and walked away on the spot, and she was back in 2 days with lots of excitement. In retrospect, I think I were lined up as a replacement for a guy she was divorcing, except I I got tired waiting and went totally cold. I pulled back which was a huge mistake. She created unbelievable drama, quit her work and went back to her marriage. Quite unpleasant end. Prior to the end she was very mature, acted quite aloof most of the time with spikes of interest, but her drama in the end tells me she was quite emotionally involved. Women who don’t care have no reason to act like that. I learned a lot from this interaction.

Yes, sounds like.

However, she held the frame.

You maintained enough of a solid frame to hold her interest and not get sucked into a perfect provider role -- she'd have lost interest if you did (sounds like she already had that with hubby).

By the same coin, she kept you around as her backup option while she decided what she wanted to do with the husband or not.

When you auto-rejected and gave up, she lost her best backup option, the experiment was over, and she returned to hubby.

Again, this is a skill-level issue. Solid enough head on your shoulders not to get totally sucked into her frame. Seduction skills too shaky though to bring her into yours and properly seduce her so she ends up in your bed.

The last one I described as gem, I am simply puzzled. She has great looks, she is purely focused on work. I was told by coworkers that she only dated briefly, she ended it up months ago and that she is available. You can picture my jaw dropping, especially when there are no other single guys around, so I have no competition. You can also picture my frustration for exactly the same reason. I believe I have decent SMV, good position and money for provider style, decent game, I'm in great shape, but I just can't move forward, she blocked every of my moves. I have reasons to believe she is looking for LTR.

Well, first off:

There's Always Another Man in Her Life

At the start of the new year, there was a thread on the boards with suggestions for new articles this year. Zac suggested one on the tendency of women to always have men in their lives... and that this should never be an obstacle for you when meeting new women. It’s a curious thing for me to...

www.girlschase.com

Whenever you encounter these girls who are complete catches but seem to have been long-term single and also seem resistant to dating, one of the following will in my experience always be the case:

• There is some guy she is sleeping with who she is into that you don't know about (and she isn't saying) -- this is the most common
• There is some ex-boyfriend who is crazy about her she keeps around as a backup option so she doesn't feel pressure to find a new man
• Or else there is some guy she has a huge crush on who she is chasing after and trying to get together with but hasn't managed to yet

I would also add -- coworker intel is not worth much.

Women typically have complete lives outside of work their coworkers usually have no idea about.

I talk about a girl I was seeing where guys at her work were going nuts courting her, thinking she was totally single, when in fact we were shagging like bunnies in heat, in this article:

The Sad Tale of "Shopping Guy"

In this post, I'd like to share with you a cautionary tale. I'd like to tell you the story of a man named Shopping Guy. Shopping Guy isn't really his name. His family and his friends call him something else, no doubt; something closer to an actual name and less of a label. But I know him only as...

www.girlschase.com

This is not an exception -- this is the norm. Especially for high value women. Do you think a very attractive woman with a lot of suitors wants to scare all those guys off by announcing she has a new guy she's seeing, when it's not completely stable yet?

What happens if it doesn't work out because the guy's a bad boy (which is a type of guy every girl, including high value women who are ultimately looking for providers, fantasize about and sample), and they break up after three months? Is she going to tell all those guys, "Hey guys, I'm back on the market again"? She looks like a chick who sleeps around and can't secure commitment from the men she dates. Her value goes down and none of those guys will want her as much. It is better if they simply never know he exists -- so they won't.

YOU are one of those guys who is simply never going to know about the other guys these girls are sleeping with, my man. Any guy she works with who is into her is.

She is going to go out of her way to make sure those guys who are chasing her never know about her lovers. Depending on how cautious she is, you may not find out she has a guy until they're 6 months in and serious... 10 months in and moving in together... or 2 years in and engaged.

I had a chick at an office job I was sort of angling for, and then we all went out to the club one night and she started making out with one of my other coworkers. The third guy there and I looked at each other like, "Huh?" Come to find out she and that guy had been seeing each other for several weeks but none of us knew. That drunk club make-out session was the announcement, I guess (the dude who got her was sneaky -- as soon as she transferred in, he made himself her "welcome committee" and took charge of showing her the ropes in both the office and the city. Turns out that wasn't the only rope he was showing her ).

I had another chick I knew in an office job where the girl casually let it slip she had a live-in boyfriend, and us guys who had known her for years and took our shots at getting her out now and again were all like, "Huh? Did you know she was seeing anyone? I thought she was single! Live-in boyfriend? When did that happen? How long's she been seeing this guy? Has she been seeing this guy for a long time and none of us even knew, lol?"

Women are tricky minxes, man. Even the ones you think are "very conservative" and "looking for a long-term provider."

That girl from the shopping guy article, those guys courting her thought she was completely celibate. One of them thought she was a virgin and tried explaining some things about men to her so she could "keep herself safe" (i.e., not end up with any guy except him). That girl at my office with the secret live-in boyfriend always seemed like this shy, conservative girl.

Having been in various workplaces, I have also seen how a lot of guys there will start to think the women there must be limited to dating from the pool of whoever is in the office, when in fact most of the men most women date they meet anywhere but the office. Workplaces warp perceptions.

Some girls are blabbermouths about every guy they are seeing, it is true. You get the office motormouth girl who vents about every 2-month relationship she has and you know her entire life dating history. But a lot of girls do not talk about the men they are dating until it has gotten quite serious. They are happier to let everyone think they are chaste good girls who are waiting for the right guy, meanwhile they are getting nailed in a thousand different positions by guys they met outside work (guys like myself and the other men on this forum). They may look chaste compared to the blabbermouth girl, but it is just because they are shrewd enough not to be running their mouths in the workplace, which tends to be filled with well-earning potential long-term providers.

I am trying to convince myself that she has lots of sexual experience, maybe even she is so called alpha widow, but I just can’t find a single clue that would point in that direction. I’m only finding the exact opposite, she is very conservative and from conservative background. She is very ambiguous about possible dating, talk about frustration again. I don't think she friend zoned me, at least not in her words or behavior. As I learned mainly from woman B, patience and distance are golden no matter what is happening, a woman that is really interested will always come back. Options you guys are offering is to walk away and focus on other girls. It make a lot of sense but do I really want to do it?

This is what your perspective is when you are just circling around women instead of shagging them.

You won't know what the truth is with them, they maintain this veil of ambiguity about themselves, and you spend endless time concocting theories then throwing them away because the truth is you just don't know.

And let me tell you -- when you are getting the "veil of mystery" about a girl, there is something she does not want you to know, and it is almost always going to be about another guy (because what else? That her father is a super villain? It's always something about a dude she is obscuring).

When you're in this position of not sleeping with her meanwhile trying to puzzle out what her situation is, you might as well be coming up with theories about if there was ever life in the gas clouds of Saturn or what the political structure of the first city-state in the Fertile Crescent was like or how the average North Korean really feels about Great Leader. You just don't have the information, she is deliberately NOT giving it to you, and so anything you come up with is going to be a guess.

If you want to understand what women are doing and what the reality is in their lives, there is only one way to do it:

Fuck them, then ask them, and see what they say.

Preferably fuck enough of them that you understand these patterns, and stop trying to puzzle out "the mystery of the celibate girl" and instead are able to look at girls like this and say, "Well, I'm eligible and she's attracted but she won't come out. So either she's fucking a guy right now or she's got another guy she wants to fuck. I need to see if I can get around this guy to get her, or else I need to put her on the back burner until she becomes available while I shag some other girls."

Chase

 

[Skills]

What makes you think aiming for relationship is negative? I am simply not interested in banging 5-6. 7 is not that exiting to me either. Being alone sucks, I don't even have time or mood to run around and look for girls. I prefer one stable relationship, good conversations, dining, trips. you know, all the boring stuff called life

i was saying that i am speculating you are stuck in apps and getting punish by the apps algorithm that are showing you mediocre 5 and lower level women profiles get it... I was agreeing with @ulrich assessment that you are probably stuck in apps. And since i guarantee you are not using them right or properly you are getting punish by them messing up your realities since you are matching with crap, get it??

 

[Mali]

@Mali,

Okay, a few important things to highlight:

When it's social circle, and especially when it's work, women hit the brakes hard. Going too far with just one wrong guy can completely wreck their reputations and screw their whole lives up. The chance a guy is The One < the possible damage to her life if he turns out to be just another guy and goes ape.

Every workplace guy gets slow-gamed... every guy from her workplace, that is (she will still be moving at 'normal speed' with men she meets outside of work).

It is possible to be the guy who beds girls quick at work (then keeps them, if he wants to), but most guys will struggle with this. Personally I always found it tough to do unless you were on your way out / had already left the job, and were meeting up with a girl there was no longer that reason for her to be cautious any longer.

Many great points Chase, agree, I was kind of thinking the same, it makes perfect sense. Lover frame and fast moving may not be the best approach at work in general, but I think it is still good to apply lover frame even if it will initially end up in rejection. I am amazed how fast women can think and what insight they have, I presented lover frame and it took her literally 3-5 seconds to rewire her view, it did trigger an alarm in her mind and she hit the brakes. As you said, one wrong guy can completely wreck her reputations and screw her entire life.

In my opinion, a guy who is really interested just to have to stay around her long enough and keep his frame. I'm not convinced that classical alpha male approach to walk away after first failed attempt would be successful. After initial meetings the guy is either highly attractive in her eyes or not, but even if she sees him as attractive it is quite risky for her to accept invitation in this social setting. Slower provider frame when she has some time to warm up to his advances and check how he behaves around other women seems to be better approach. Provider guy is generally considered boring, hence if he presents lover frame initially it might be quite a good enhancement of his overall frame, especially if he can deal with initial rejection.

You guys probably don't have much experience with provider frame since you are moving around all the time with lover attitude, but a good provider frame is also quite challenging. It truly requires lots of patience, facing constant uncertainty and frustration because even if the girl is interested she is mostly unreadable. The guy has to be interpreting accurately subtle hints she gives away and be ready for anything anytime because once she opens the door he also have to be moving fast. The guy has to be constantly aware of stalker affect that he might generate if he doesn't carefully watch his behavior. He has to manage his own neediness, manage own value and respect because once long term interest is presented his value automatically drops in her eyes, despite her aiming for LTR herself. The guy has to play with aloofness while showing persistent interest to avoid creepiness. If too aloof or cold she will think he's lost interest. If persisting too much, contacting her too much or pressing her too much, he may seem like a creep in no time. Generating jealousy works well but I think it is immature, I would have never done it again. Genuine attitude is much better, which also means one has to voluntary enter one-itis because if she senses that he is seducing other women it might be a be a big turn off (for LTR). But that depends on her personality. She may also play jealousy card to get back to him and man, women can play this card much better, and with more mates than men can.

Man, classical alpha male attitude when she either accepts your advances or the guy simply walk away is many times seems easier. Provider frame is boring, exhausting, but it may worth it for LTR if nothing else is working. I was in a great LTR for many years with loyal and loving woman who has done anything for me, and I truly miss it. I want another LTR, my life as a single guy sucks.

Also, not that I’m trying to solve the mystery of single celibate woman, who really knows what women think, feel and do. We are not allowed to know. I’m trying to replace that whoever it is with another high value man, myself. I know it’s doable, from my own experience women that occupied my mind in one-itis were also replaced, and really fast. I sense that she is slowly warming up, she also pulled couple sh*t tests, so I'm thinking she wouldn't be doing these if she were not interested.

 

[Glow]

any great points Chase, agree, I was kind of thinking the same, it makes perfect sense. Lover frame and fast moving may not be the best approach at work in general, but I think it is still good to apply lover frame even if it will initially end up in rejection. I am amazed how fast women can think and what insight they have, I presented lover frame and it took her literally 3-5 seconds to rewire her view, it did trigger an alarm in her mind and she hit the brakes. As you said, one wrong guy can completely wreck her reputations and screw her entire life.

You seem to be oversimplifying things with this Provider/Lover frame modelling. Realise that "Lover frames" eg are simplifed representations of appearing as a lover more than a provider. but the reality is that they come in many forms. & thats the usual problem - its just a simple concept to explain beginners what not to do and what direction to take things in. Initially.

One good "lover frame" has an underlying subtext of generating attraction and sexual activation without giving her a chance to reject you.

How is she eg. gonna reject a slight prolonged gase that i give her with juuust enough lag to it, a hint of something intimate, but also with no facial indication of anything, before i remove it. She is not sure if it was there or not -- she felt something but its not clear if it was just her.. - concept of controlled signals. Or how she feels a slight gasp when i look at her walking towards her (directionally) but she then realises i look 20 degrees past her (and just am walking to make her feel my vibe at a moment chosen to ignite something in her).

Why can i not mix this with being genuine, humble & very confident?

Point being - i can which taps into both frames. Without ruining anything. Rather it makes me appear as a guy with variety of appeals.

On speed and social circles
Social Circle game truly just works best by being more neutral w. her initially and then gradually displaying value, that im someone who gets things, is pleasant to be around on various areas and someone she can see in her world. Or whatever attractive qualities. A lil active ignoring eye contact and letting her take you in. Its also smart to throw discretion frames early - sexual frame types but formulated more as sots aka no sexual explicitism in any way. Its just the simple way to let her see youre cool on that area removing reputation protection measures. and adding others in to make her feel you get it and has sexual and social capacity.

Point being - you work her via presence, interaction and the likes with absolutely no typical interest display, just a tempting, confident-contained undercurrent, doint netural typical things in work or socially to facilitate a proximity and interactions needed to deliver the juice. When she gets sticky aka responds positively to you when she sees you then set up a plausible deniability extract. Leading her neutrally but with little undercurrent moments and good feelings spayed out over a momentum of things will provide those opportunities. Sometimes 2 extracts are needed. An actual plausible eniable thing eg lunch, then extract for outside the context.

Fast moving is typically done in "cold approach" as we have a short window of a night or hours, or we will never see her again. This is Social circle so theres no reason at all for it. As chase outlines unless youre good its better to play it slow and you can cause you will see her repeatedly.

aka
1. Be neutral but friendly-cool. treat her like any one.
2. Display value - often visually and affect her indirectly or controlled
3. when she gets sticky - make an extract - take her outside the SC or do one internal plausible deniable thing then an extract.

Mali said:
In my opinion, a guy who is really interested just to have to stay around her long enough and keep his frame. I'm not convinced that classical alpha male approach to walk away after first failed attempt would be successful. After initial meetings the guy is either highly attractive in her eyes or not, but even if she sees him as attractive it is quite risky for her to accept invitation in this social setting. Slower provider frame when she has some time to warm up to his advances and check how he behaves around other women seems to be better approach. Provider guy is generally considered boring, hence if he presents lover frame initially it might be quite a good enhancement of his overall frame, especially if he can deal with initial rejection.

Again slower doesnt mean provider. Its just a pace choice. But slow is good in SCs as you have time and recurrent meetups to help you which is the problem in cold approach where you have to seduce faster.

Mali said:
You guys probably don't have much experience with provider frame since you are moving around all the time with lover attitude, but a good provider frame is also quite challenging. It truly requires lots of patience, facing constant uncertainty and frustration because even if the girl is interested she is mostly unreadable. The guy has to be interpreting accurately subtle hints she gives away and be ready for anything anytime because once she opens the door he also have to be moving fast. The guy has to be constantly aware of stalker affect that he might generate if he doesn't carefully watch his behavior. He has to manage his own neediness, manage own value and respect because once long term interest is presented his value automatically drops in her eyes, despite her aiming for LTR herself. The guy has to play with aloofness while showing persistent interest to avoid creepiness. If too aloof or cold she will think he's lost interest. If persisting too much, contacting her too much or pressing her too much, he may seem like a creep in no time. Generating jealousy works well but I think it is immature, I would have never done it again. Genuine attitude is much better, which also means one has to voluntary enter one-itis because if she senses that he is seducing other women it might be a be a big turn off (for LTR). But that depends on her personality. She may also play jealousy card to get back to him and man, women can play this card much better, and with more mates than men can.

Man, classical alpha male attitude when she either accepts your advances or the guy simply walk away is many times seems easier. Provider frame is boring, exhausting, but it may worth it for LTR if nothing else is working. I was in a great LTR for many years with loyal and loving woman who has done anything for me, and I truly miss it. I want another LTR, my life as a single guy sucks.
Click to expand...

blah - provider frame is just a term used to outline orbiters and loosers to show afcs what they do wrong. In reality there are many qualities to pick from it but its smarter to call them eg. a "genuine cool guy frame" than a provider frame. Can go in many directions to add qualities that appeals to women. Its better to be more specific but youre just ranting pua textbook things as aligned with a beginner mindset, not genuine qualities of weight.

i might display provider qualities to resonate with certain of her life world aspirations. Eg that im appreciative of her doings for me. Eg that i acknowledge her and reassure here. eg that i hold a certain background. I might display sexual prize capacity via vibe and smooth escalation (not possible to reject before i choose to increase intensity to blow her away). I might do many things along the path of seduction - especially in scs where i have time and might slow work girls side by side. Many of them not fitting into your categories of lover or provider. Some hitting both.

Reality is you wouldnt see 99 % of my moves. Neither would about all work place guys. A few women might sense some of them.

Youre holding onto ignorant thinking in your head. leave these locked notions and build stronger ones eg be cool sexy fun. or confident genuine sexy. etc etc.

you can easily combine them to suit a more potent seductive style that fits long term girlfriends if that what you want.

 

[PaulieFlyn10]

Hey

@Mali,

Okay, a few important things to highlight:



When it's social circle, and especially when it's work, women hit the brakes hard. Going too far with just one wrong guy can completely wreck their reputations and screw their whole lives up. The chance a guy is The One < the possible damage to her life if he turns out to be just another guy and goes ape.

Every workplace guy gets slow-gamed... every guy from her workplace, that is (she will still be moving at 'normal speed' with men she meets outside of work).

It is possible to be the guy who beds girls quick at work (then keeps them, if he wants to), but most guys will struggle with this. Personally I always found it tough to do unless you were on your way out / had already left the job, and were meeting up with a girl there was no longer that reason for her to be cautious any longer.



That's how women do things.

If she isn't interested at all, she won't put it out there at all.

It's deliberately ambiguous, that way if it doesn't work out she can withdraw her attempt and if any guy tries to nail her down over it say, "I don't know what he means! I was just being friendly! Sheesh, men!"



Sound like small-town girls on a faster life trajectory (get serious faster / marry sooner).

You can bed these girls quick too but you need to be able to break that frame and pull them into yours. That takes finesse to be able to do.

The other option is to do what a lot of the guys these girls end up with in LTRs do, which is just be a part of their lives for long enough while making moves until they end up together. That is going to be difficult for you though if you do not live in their towns (sounds like you don't).

Either way, these are girls you weren't really in the position to get -- you're not at the point where you can pick them up quick, and you're not around them enough for a long-enough timeline (sounds like) that more traditional social circle game will work.

Bit of a case of "look, but don't touch" give the combination of your skill level + logistics.



Yes, sounds like.

However, she held the frame.

You maintained enough of a solid frame to hold her interest and not get sucked into a perfect provider role -- she'd have lost interest if you did (sounds like she already had that with hubby).

By the same coin, she kept you around as her backup option while she decided what she wanted to do with the husband or not.

When you auto-rejected and gave up, she lost her best backup option, the experiment was over, and she returned to hubby.

Again, this is a skill-level issue. Solid enough head on your shoulders not to get totally sucked into her frame. Seduction skills too shaky though to bring her into yours and properly seduce her so she ends up in your bed.



Well, first off:

There's Always Another Man in Her Life

At the start of the new year, there was a thread on the boards with suggestions for new articles this year. Zac suggested one on the tendency of women to always have men in their lives... and that this should never be an obstacle for you when meeting new women. It’s a curious thing for me to...

www.girlschase.com

Whenever you encounter these girls who are complete catches but seem to have been long-term single and also seem resistant to dating, one of the following will in my experience always be the case:

• There is some guy she is sleeping with who she is into that you don't know about (and she isn't saying) -- this is the most common
• There is some ex-boyfriend who is crazy about her she keeps around as a backup option so she doesn't feel pressure to find a new man
• Or else there is some guy she has a huge crush on who she is chasing after and trying to get together with but hasn't managed to yet

I would also add -- coworker intel is not worth much.

Women typically have complete lives outside of work their coworkers usually have no idea about.

I talk about a girl I was seeing where guys at her work were going nuts courting her, thinking she was totally single, when in fact we were shagging like bunnies in heat, in this article:

The Sad Tale of "Shopping Guy"

In this post, I'd like to share with you a cautionary tale. I'd like to tell you the story of a man named Shopping Guy. Shopping Guy isn't really his name. His family and his friends call him something else, no doubt; something closer to an actual name and less of a label. But I know him only as...

www.girlschase.com

This is not an exception -- this is the norm. Especially for high value women. Do you think a very attractive woman with a lot of suitors wants to scare all those guys off by announcing she has a new guy she's seeing, when it's not completely stable yet?

What happens if it doesn't work out because the guy's a bad boy (which is a type of guy every girl, including high value women who are ultimately looking for providers, fantasize about and sample), and they break up after three months? Is she going to tell all those guys, "Hey guys, I'm back on the market again"? She looks like a chick who sleeps around and can't secure commitment from the men she dates. Her value goes down and none of those guys will want her as much. It is better if they simply never know he exists -- so they won't.

YOU are one of those guys who is simply never going to know about the other guys these girls are sleeping with, my man. Any guy she works with who is into her is.

She is going to go out of her way to make sure those guys who are chasing her never know about her lovers. Depending on how cautious she is, you may not find out she has a guy until they're 6 months in and serious... 10 months in and moving in together... or 2 years in and engaged.

I had a chick at an office job I was sort of angling for, and then we all went out to the club one night and she started making out with one of my other coworkers. The third guy there and I looked at each other like, "Huh?" Come to find out she and that guy had been seeing each other for several weeks but none of us knew. That drunk club make-out session was the announcement, I guess (the dude who got her was sneaky -- as soon as she transferred in, he made himself her "welcome committee" and took charge of showing her the ropes in both the office and the city. Turns out that wasn't the only rope he was showing her ).

I had another chick I knew in an office job where the girl casually let it slip she had a live-in boyfriend, and us guys who had known her for years and took our shots at getting her out now and again were all like, "Huh? Did you know she was seeing anyone? I thought she was single! Live-in boyfriend? When did that happen? How long's she been seeing this guy? Has she been seeing this guy for a long time and none of us even knew, lol?"

Women are tricky minxes, man. Even the ones you think are "very conservative" and "looking for a long-term provider."

That girl from the shopping guy article, those guys courting her thought she was completely celibate. One of them thought she was a virgin and tried explaining some things about men to her so she could "keep herself safe" (i.e., not end up with any guy except him). That girl at my office with the secret live-in boyfriend always seemed like this shy, conservative girl.

Having been in various workplaces, I have also seen how a lot of guys there will start to think the women there must be limited to dating from the pool of whoever is in the office, when in fact most of the men most women date they meet anywhere but the office. Workplaces warp perceptions.

Some girls are blabbermouths about every guy they are seeing, it is true. You get the office motormouth girl who vents about every 2-month relationship she has and you know her entire life dating history. But a lot of girls do not talk about the men they are dating until it has gotten quite serious. They are happier to let everyone think they are chaste good girls who are waiting for the right guy, meanwhile they are getting nailed in a thousand different positions by guys they met outside work (guys like myself and the other men on this forum). They may look chaste compared to the blabbermouth girl, but it is just because they are shrewd enough not to be running their mouths in the workplace, which tends to be filled with well-earning potential long-term providers.



This is what your perspective is when you are just circling around women instead of shagging them.

You won't know what the truth is with them, they maintain this veil of ambiguity about themselves, and you spend endless time concocting theories then throwing them away because the truth is you just don't know.

And let me tell you -- when you are getting the "veil of mystery" about a girl, there is something she does not want you to know, and it is almost always going to be about another guy (because what else? That her father is a super villain? It's always something about a dude she is obscuring).

When you're in this position of not sleeping with her meanwhile trying to puzzle out what her situation is, you might as well be coming up with theories about if there was ever life in the gas clouds of Saturn or what the political structure of the first city-state in the Fertile Crescent was like or how the average North Korean really feels about Great Leader. You just don't have the information, she is deliberately NOT giving it to you, and so anything you come up with is going to be a guess.

If you want to understand what women are doing and what the reality is in their lives, there is only one way to do it:

Fuck them, then ask them, and see what they say.

Preferably fuck enough of them that you understand these patterns, and stop trying to puzzle out "the mystery of the celibate girl" and instead are able to look at girls like this and say, "Well, I'm eligible and she's attracted but she won't come out. So either she's fucking a guy right now or she's got another guy she wants to fuck. I need to see if I can get around this guy to get her, or else I need to put her on the back burner until she becomes available while I shag some other girls."

Chase

Hey Chase I love this comment ...do you have any techniques to be the bad boy/lover that co workers fantasize about and shag them quickly?

Also, does the whole reputation concern among girls with co workers thing apply in small towns and colleges where everyone seems to know everyone?

And how do you work around that without moving way too slow and shagging as many as possible?

 

[Mali]

You seem to be oversimplifying things with this Provider/Lover frame modelling. Realise that "Lover frames" eg are simplifed representations of appearing as a lover more than a provider. but the reality is that they come in many forms. & thats the usual problem - its just a simple concept to explain beginners what not to do and what direction to take things in. Initially.

One good "lover frame" has an underlying subtext of generating attraction and sexual activation without giving her a chance to reject you.

How is she eg. gonna reject a slight prolonged gase that i give her with juuust enough lag to it, a hint of something intimate, but also with no facial indication of anything, before i remove it. She is not sure if it was there or not -- she felt something but its not clear if it was just her.. - concept of controlled signals. Or how she feels a slight gasp when i look at her walking towards her (directionally) but she then realises i look 20 degrees past her (and just am walking to make her feel my vibe at a moment chosen to ignite something in her).

Why can i not mix this with being genuine, humble & very confident?

Point being - i can which taps into both frames. Without ruining anything. Rather it makes me appear as a guy with variety of appeals.

On speed and social circles
Social Circle game truly just works best by being more neutral w. her initially and then gradually displaying value, that im someone who gets things, is pleasant to be around on various areas and someone she can see in her world. Or whatever attractive qualities. A lil active ignoring eye contact and letting her take you in. Its also smart to throw discretion frames early - sexual frame types but formulated more as sots aka no sexual explicitism in any way. Its just the simple way to let her see youre cool on that area removing reputation protection measures. and adding others in to make her feel you get it and has sexual and social capacity.

Point being - you work her via presence, interaction and the likes with absolutely no typical interest display, just a tempting, confident-contained undercurrent, doint netural typical things in work or socially to facilitate a proximity and interactions needed to deliver the juice. When she gets sticky aka responds positively to you when she sees you then set up a plausible deniability extract. Leading her neutrally but with little undercurrent moments and good feelings spayed out over a momentum of things will provide those opportunities. Sometimes 2 extracts are needed. An actual plausible eniable thing eg lunch, then extract for outside the context.

Fast moving is typically done in "cold approach" as we have a short window of a night or hours, or we will never see her again. This is Social circle so theres no reason at all for it. As chase outlines unless youre good its better to play it slow and you can cause you will see her repeatedly.

aka
1. Be neutral but friendly-cool. treat her like any one.
2. Display value - often visually and affect her indirectly or controlled
3. when she gets sticky - make an extract - take her outside the SC or do one internal plausible deniable thing then an extract.


Again slower doesnt mean provider. Its just a pace choice. But slow is good in SCs as you have time and recurrent meetups to help you which is the problem in cold approach where you have to seduce faster.


blah - provider frame is just a term used to outline orbiters and loosers to show afcs what they do wrong. In reality there are many qualities to pick from it but its smarter to call them eg. a "genuine cool guy frame" than a provider frame. Can go in many directions to add qualities that appeals to women. Its better to be more specific but youre just ranting pua textbook things as aligned with a beginner mindset, not genuine qualities of weight.

i might display provider qualities to resonate with certain of her life world aspirations. Eg that im appreciative of her doings for me. Eg that i acknowledge her and reassure here. eg that i hold a certain background. I might display sexual prize capacity via vibe and smooth escalation (not possible to reject before i choose to increase intensity to blow her away). I might do many things along the path of seduction - especially in scs where i have time and might slow work girls side by side. Many of them not fitting into your categories of lover or provider. Some hitting both.

Reality is you wouldnt see 99 % of my moves. Neither would about all work place guys. A few women might sense some of them.

Youre holding onto ignorant thinking in your head. leave these locked notions and build stronger ones eg be cool sexy fun. or confident genuine sexy. etc etc.

you can easily combine them to suit a more potent seductive style that fits long term girlfriends if that what you want.

G: You seem to be oversimplifying things with this Provider/Lover frame modelling.
^ Well, it depends on definition. Provider can be described as guy who is interested in LTR which includes sex, unlike lover who is interested mostly in sex only. If a guy fails to sweep her off her feet and she doesn't follow his lead when he meets her initially or shortly afterwards, sorry, he failed as a fast moving lover at that point. Lover is generally fast moving, he engages her, maybe skips a date and beds her the same day. Lover doesn't stay around for too long, he moves onto another girls, and because of that reason lover doesn't develop real connection with the girl, only superficial one related to attraction and sex. Provider is a guy who attempts to seduce the girl and who wants to make her his girlfriend. Once a girl senses provider she commonly put brakes on and lets him wait. If he agrees to wait he could be good material for LTR. Now she's got to test him for neediness, creepiness, emotional stability, ability to provide etc. She doesn't have to bother with lover much because she already knows he won't stay around, and he is interested in sex only.

It is expected from lover to generate high attraction and fast connection with the girl. She may agree to intimacy fast depending on situation. Lover is just an attractive guy who she bangs without any strings attached. Provider is the opposite, she wants him from the beginning for long term relationship, he needs to prove his long term values.

Provider is usually assumed to be less attractive than lover but that is questionable because it really depends on what she values. Provider can be quite attractive and cool guy but she will still hit the brakes. If a lover stays around the girl for longer time, his attractiveness will diminish very fast. In her eyes he failed to be intimate with her because that is what she expects from real lover. He will try to seduce her 1-3 times and if he fails she will reject him as a lover and move him to another category. Friend with benefits? Fuck buddy? With experienced girls he gets only 1 chance and he is out, he can continue to call himself lover but that is not how she sees him. He may of course build a good connection with the girl over time but so does provider (again, it depends on what she wants and what she values). Over time, provider may have much higher chances to bed her than lover because he stays around her and with some skills he can build good solid connection. It is assumed from lover and alpha male that they walk away if she blocks advances.

In my experience, good looking woman usually knows what you want from very first minutes of you meeting her. Unlike lover, provider builds good solid connection over time, again, this is assuming that is what she is looking for. She becomes more attracted to provider over time as he passes her tests and builds lasting connection. She realizes he is not just another guy who wants to get laid and leave. Her attraction to provider raises slowly over time if he doesn't mess things up. But I get your point, it just really a matter of definition, you can stick around that girl as a lover even for many months and eventually get laid, even if she knows that you are not exactly aiming for LTR. I would simply call this scenario slow moving lover, fuck buddy, friend with benefits, but who really cares. There is no mystery in how you continue present, she already sees through you and knows exactly what you want.

Not to make things so simple, there is also a difference between high quality and low quality girls as I sort of attempted to describe. I've seen lover banging bunch of girls at the same work place, yet he wasn't able to get high quality girl. He failed to seduce her and even though he was quite popular guy everywhere he only ended up in her friend zone. Lover or friend? He didn't get intimate with her. She had all qualities I desribed above.

G:
1. Be neutral but friendly-cool. treat her like any one.
2. Display value - often visually and affect her indirectly or controlled
3. when she gets sticky - make an extract - take her outside the SC or do one internal plausible deniable thing then an extract.

Agreed. Frames of course come in many forms and combinations. In my scenario with gem woman, I think I presented as a genuine lover from neutrality and friendly-cool as you describe. For simplicity I expressed something like "hey, it looks like we like each other, why don't we have some fun and see where it goes". She got quite excited and amused but denied it withing couple seconds. So I came back later on and added: "hey, I sense good vibes and I am also interested in LTR". I didn't realize that lover frame would failed anyway in work scenario, and I though provider frame would be a failure from the beginning. As far as I can say, she seems to be much more interested in provider frame and doesn't care much about lover frame, maybe around 80-20 ratio.

G: provider frame is just a term used to outline orbiters and loosers to show afcs what they do wrong. In reality there are many qualities to pick from it but its smarter to call them eg. a "genuine cool guy frame" than a provider frame.

^ I disagree, "genuine cool guy frame" is a good description but it doesn't disqualify provider frame, meaning any provider can also be genuine and cool guy. I know many genuine and cool guys who are providers, and I also know many guys who are not good at it. Being provider also doesn't automatically mean a guy is a looser or orbiter. Where did you guys come up with these ideas? There is nothing wrong with LTR, if that's what you want. I personally prefer relationship with one 'high quality woman' who is loyal and who you can trust than bang tens of pretty ones.

 

[Zoro]

You're a full cup of your own ideas. If you want change you have to realize that you need to change, and that starts with emptying out your cup of ideas and starting fresh.

Here's some advice from my experience with LTRs.

Hitting escalation windows is a must. That is how you sweep a woman off her feet. If I think about it, anytime I lost a girl I liked, it was because I missed escalation windows. The "date" would end and I wouldn't be able to get her to see me again. And when I hit the escalation windows she was mine. Why? Because it's a swirl of passion, a demonstration of your ability to lead as a dominant man, and a "validation that it was meant to happen".

Learning game is a must. Relationships are not the time to kick back and hang your seduction hat up, in fact during relationships it's vital to understand the ins and outs of female psychology, masculine-feminine dynamics, and how to have options as a man if the worst case scenario happens. Why? Because your relationship will run smoothly and be more enjoyable for both you and her. It's how you hang on to a hot, submissive, wifey material girl while being broke and the best you can offer is good dick and masculine wisdom.

Handling your beliefs are a must. I don't know where this belief came from but I have been saying to myself ever since I was a teen "my next relationship will be even better" and guess what, it's only been getting better. It's not just the belief, it's the actions that open up to you when you believe you can do it, it's why I learn game because I have a target I actually think I will hit by learning the skill. Another belief I tell myself, "I date out of my league", I don't limit myself, I go for what I want, and that's how I get what I want. It's also how to stay highly motivated.

Killing your ego is a must. Learning game is one of the hardest things a man can do, at least in the beginning. You must face irrational fears, you must look stupid and awkward before you're smooth and charismatic, you'll make dumb mistakes that pain you to your core, and lose girls that your heart aches over, and most importantly your worldview must shift from what you think is right to what reality actually is.

How you meet is important. The early stages of meeting anyone shapes the relationship long term. If you meet her in a dominant way, then you are likely to be wearing the pants and be seen as the leader of the relationship. If she is the one to approach you, then she's the one likely to take charge and see you as less of a man than a guy who approaches her. For me personally, I enjoy masculine-feminine relationships, where I am the man and she is the woman, that means we must step up and do a good job in our roles. A woman has to have a certain maturity and mental health to be able to be open to her femininity (and a man needs those qualities as well to be fully masculine) and I think this is really the way to screen for high quality women AND have a high quality relationship where both you and her are fulfilled, attracted to each other, and inspire each other.

Now if any of this resonated with you, (which I doubt because most people do not shift their worldview from simply being told it's something they should do) then your next step is to take the advice from the experienced guys on these boards and meet more women with an open mind. Then you will discover the way to meet and date your ideal type.

Sitting here on the boards and arguing with guys more experienced with you is just foolish and yet feels good to the ego.

So will you stroke your ego or go forth into the world with some heart?

 

[Skills]

G: You seem to be oversimplifying things with this Provider/Lover frame modelling.
^ Well, it depends on definition. Provider can be described as guy who is interested in LTR which includes sex, unlike lover who is interested mostly in sex only. If a guy fails to sweep her off her feet and she doesn't follow his lead when he meets her initially or shortly afterwards, sorry, he failed as a fast moving lover at that point. Lover is generally fast moving, he engages her, maybe skips a date and beds her the same day. Lover doesn't stay around for too long, he moves onto another girls, and because of that reason lover doesn't develop real connection with the girl, only superficial one related to attraction and sex. Provider is a guy who attempts to seduce the girl and who wants to make her his girlfriend. Once a girl senses provider she commonly put brakes on and lets him wait. If he agrees to wait he could be good material for LTR. Now she's got to test him for neediness, creepiness, emotional stability, ability to provide etc. She doesn't have to bother with lover much because she already knows he won't stay around, and he is interested in sex only.

It is expected from lover to generate high attraction and fast connection with the girl. She may agree to intimacy fast depending on situation. Lover is just an attractive guy who she bangs without any strings attached. Provider is the opposite, she wants him from the beginning for long term relationship, he needs to prove his long term values.

Provider is usually assumed to be less attractive than lover but that is questionable because it really depends on what she values. Provider can be quite attractive and cool guy but she will still hit the brakes. If a lover stays around the girl for longer time, his attractiveness will diminish very fast. In her eyes he failed to be intimate with her because that is what she expects from real lover. He will try to seduce her 1-3 times and if he fails she will reject him as a lover and move him to another category. Friend with benefits? Fuck buddy? With experienced girls he gets only 1 chance and he is out, he can continue to call himself lover but that is not how she sees him. He may of course build a good connection with the girl over time but so does provider (again, it depends on what she wants and what she values). Over time, provider may have much higher chances to bed her than lover because he stays around her and with some skills he can build good solid connection. It is assumed from lover and alpha male that they walk away if she blocks advances.

In my experience, good looking woman usually knows what you want from very first minutes of you meeting her. Unlike lover, provider builds good solid connection over time, again, this is assuming that is what she is looking for. She becomes more attracted to provider over time as he passes her tests and builds lasting connection. She realizes he is not just another guy who wants to get laid and leave. Her attraction to provider raises slowly over time if he doesn't mess things up. But I get your point, it just really a matter of definition, you can stick around that girl as a lover even for many months and eventually get laid, even if she knows that you are not exactly aiming for LTR. I would simply call this scenario slow moving lover, fuck buddy, friend with benefits, but who really cares. There is no mystery in how you continue present, she already sees through you and knows exactly what you want.

Not to make things so simple, there is also a difference between high quality and low quality girls as I sort of attempted to describe. I've seen lover banging bunch of girls at the same work place, yet he wasn't able to get high quality girl. He failed to seduce her and even though he was quite popular guy everywhere he only ended up in her friend zone. Lover or friend? He didn't get intimate with her. She had all qualities I desribed above.

G:
1. Be neutral but friendly-cool. treat her like any one.
2. Display value - often visually and affect her indirectly or controlled
3. when she gets sticky - make an extract - take her outside the SC or do one internal plausible deniable thing then an extract.

Agreed. Frames of course come in many forms and combinations. In my scenario with gem woman, I think I presented as a genuine lover from neutrality and friendly-cool as you describe. For simplicity I expressed something like "hey, it looks like we like each other, why don't we have some fun and see where it goes". She got quite excited and amused but denied it withing couple seconds. So I came back later on and added: "hey, I sense good vibes and I am also interested in LTR". I didn't realize that lover frame would failed anyway in work scenario, and I though provider frame would be a failure from the beginning. As far as I can say, she seems to be much more interested in provider frame and doesn't care much about lover frame, maybe around 80-20 ratio.

G: provider frame is just a term used to outline orbiters and loosers to show afcs what they do wrong. In reality there are many qualities to pick from it but its smarter to call them eg. a "genuine cool guy frame" than a provider frame.

^ I disagree, "genuine cool guy frame" is a good description but it doesn't disqualify provider frame, meaning any provider can also be genuine and cool guy. I know many genuine and cool guys who are providers, and I also know many guys who are not good at it. Being provider also doesn't automatically mean a guy is a looser or orbiter. Where did you guys come up with these ideas? There is nothing wrong with LTR, if that's what you want. I personally prefer relationship with one 'high quality woman' who is loyal and who you can trust than bang tens of pretty ones.

total kj, dude, are you here to learn or to write stuff that is totally kj.... This is exactly why you are not having success total none sense, educate yourself dude, stop being and askhole:


A person who constantly asks for your advice, yet ALWAYS does the complete opposite of what you told them to do.
"Oh my God, Rich is such a total askhole!!! He always asks me what he should do about this or that and I give him my opinion, BUT he just NEVER listens to my advice. Rich just goes ahead and does what he wants to do in the first place. I don't know why I bother. "


Educate yourself first here:

The 2 types of men when it comes to seduction - The Skills Method

There are 2 types of men when it comes to seduction. One is successful the other one is not, one is a lover the other one a provider.

www.theskillsmethod.com

Date Plans - The lover provider balance keep it ambiguous - troubleshooting

So guys i get many pms, and i see posts about lover provider a lot, people misunderstand the whole thing, this is one of the topics people don't get due to nuances. Ok the lover provider stuff has been discussed to death, and yes it is important, super important..... But as always there are...

www.skilledseducer.com

 

[Mali]

total kj, dude, are you here to learn or to write stuff that is totally kj.... This is exactly why you are not having success total none sense, educate yourself dude, stop being and askhole:


A person who constantly asks for your advice, yet ALWAYS does the complete opposite of what you told them to do.
"Oh my God, Rich is such a total askhole!!! He always asks me what he should do about this or that and I give him my opinion, BUT he just NEVER listens to my advice. Rich just goes ahead and does what he wants to do in the first place. I don't know why I bother. "


Educate yourself first here:

The 2 types of men when it comes to seduction - The Skills Method

There are 2 types of men when it comes to seduction. One is successful the other one is not, one is a lover the other one a provider.

www.theskillsmethod.com

Date Plans - The lover provider balance keep it ambiguous - troubleshooting

So guys i get many pms, and i see posts about lover provider a lot, people misunderstand the whole thing, this is one of the topics people don't get due to nuances. Ok the lover provider stuff has been discussed to death, and yes it is important, super important..... But as always there are...

www.skilledseducer.com

I get you Skills, believe it or not this stuff is not new to me. Look for example for the ’two types of men’ article you posted. It differentiate between lover and provider but it is outdated. It somehow suggests that only lover (or alpha male) are good and attractive sexually, while provider is somehow dull and clueless guy. Though this is many times true, it is also sort of black and white thinking.

Imagine a woman, late 20s or early 30s. Let’s call her Barbie. She is pretty, she’s from good and happy family, and she wants to have her own family, kids. Of course Barbie also wants sex, so she goes out and meets Doug. He is cute, sexy, laid back and cool guy, and she is very attracted to him. He comes over and starts talking to her. He may be obvious or not but she reads from his cues that he is a lover only, he only wants sex. He is not interested in LTR. She knows he likely banged many other women so he is experienced, and sex could be good.

The same hour and place, Barbie also meets Joe. Joe is also cute, sexy, laid back and cool guy, she also feels quite attracted to him. He comes over and he also wants sex, but she senses provider in him. Now why would a guy who is a provider want sex? Is there something wrong with him? Well, he is just a guy like Doug. Guys want sex, there is no mystery in it, it is not a secret. She doesn’t have to think about it or solve some puzzles, it is simply given whether the guy shows it or not. She senses that Joe could be a good provider and he suggests he might be interested in LTR. Maybe he was in LTR before her, so he has already proven himself to be somehow stable, valuable provider.

What if Joe is also high value man? He seems quite valuable guy, he’s taking good care of his health, has a good job and has his life together. There are other women interested in him, he has options. Remember, she is looking for LTR and this guy Joe seems that he has a lot of offer, including great sex.

Which of these two guys is she going to consider for sex? It’s no brainer, she will go for Joe, maybe keep Doug hidden in the background, just in case.

So here is where we differ. A girl like Barbie especially if she is what I call ‘high quality girl’ and perhaps conservative will not even consider lover Doug. She will dump him on the spot because the other guy has much more offer than just sex. She will not risk that potential great mate Joe will see her hanging around Doug, she doesn’t want any of her friends to tell Joe that she was flirting, talking to and walking away with Doug. She will do anything to keep Doug hidden from Joe, and simplest thing is to dump him. Many times the safest thing is not to even talk to him no matter how sexy he is. Barbie will now fully focus on Joe. That usually means she will block Joe’s attempt for quick sex, and start testing the crap out of Joe to see whether he is really great potential partner or just another guy who wants to bang her and leave the next day. Barbie now has to start investing into Joe because he also has options, he is a great, sexy and cool guy. Doug can believe what he wants to believe, but in her mind Joe‘s value is ten times higher than Doug’s. Doug is for couple days, Joe is maybe for years, decades. See where I’m going?

She has to test Joe. If she doesn’t and sleeps with him right away she would feel too easy and too slutty around him. She can’t risk it because she senses Joe doesn’t want easy girl with high count, he can walk away from her. She has to postpone sex and maneuver him into a relationship. Unlike with Doug, Barbie has to invest time and energy into Joe to keep him around.

Do you know why is Barbie doing it? Because Barbie wants to have family, kids, that’s her biological drive. She needs stable and solid guy who will stat around and supports her, otherwise she will become another single mom who most valuable guys don’t want for anything else than sex.

Unfortunately this is not what’s usually happening. Barbie meets fifty different Dougs, and fifty different Dougs want sex with her, and then walk away without any obligation. All these fifty Dougs believe that they are the greatest lovers she’s ever met. Wow, a guy wants sex and fun, and then walk away, leaving behind mysterious aura so she can dream about him for years, and hope that he will come back one day. So Doug believes. How amazing, Barbie must think to herself, he wants sex and then leave. Barbie knows can’t run around with many Dougs so she doesn’t seem easy and slutty, yet she can’t find any good Joe either. Can you imagine Barbie’s frustration, she’s looking for a great and cool Joe with high value as a provider, she’s already met hundreds of different Dougs, but she can’t find any good Joe for good relationship? Can you imagine a guy just like Joe, who is high quality man, genuine, cool guy, and who wants to stick around? Forget the lover Doug, Joe’s value is off the roof.

In today’s reality, when Barbie eventually find a guy who wants LTR, he is a poor provider. She throws some basic tests at him and he fails, he doesn’t even try. She is afraid to test him more because she already knows he will fail. He lives in mommas basement. He has old broken car and changes his job every couple of months. He has no plans for future, he doesn’t take much care of himself. What is there to test? The second Barbie hears this she already knows this guy’s entire life, she already knows what’s his future. If Barbie really wants family she is now out of options, so she has to to bang Doug the same day and hopefully get pregnant, and then she has to hook some lower-end provider into providership, for at least couple of years so her kids have some family. There are no great Joes, most Joes are just average boring guys. After couple years Barbie can then dump him, take away his house and everything he saved, and she probably has to trash him too just so she doesn’t feel that bad about herself. Average Joe, unfortunately like many other average Joes is clueless, he will be broken, stripped of his provider-ship, and he will be seeking truth in Red Pill, or draining his anger in alcohol.

 

[Zoro]

@Mali

Let me ask you a serious question.

Why do you think you know the answers already?

Why even ask?

Take a step back and look at what you're doing...

Men who have walked this path further than you are telling you what's up ahead. And you're trying to tell them they are wrong even though you haven't been there to see. You think you know because it makes sense, but logic must be based on experience too.

 

[Will_V]

@Mali your mental model is way too simplified. You impose your own ideals on your perspective of women, which is the definition of madonna complex. This paragraph in particular is nothing more than wishful thinking:

So here is where we differ. A girl like Barbie especially if she is what I call ‘high quality girl’ and perhaps conservative will not even consider lover Doug. She will dump him on the spot because the other guy has much more offer than just sex. She will not risk that potential great mate Joe will see her hanging around Doug, she doesn’t want any of her friends to tell Joe that she was flirting, talking to and walking away with Doug. She will do anything to keep Doug hidden from Joe, and simplest thing is to dump him. Many times the safest thing is not to even talk to him no matter how sexy he is. Barbie will now fully focus on Joe. That usually means she will block Joe’s attempt for quick sex, and start testing the crap out of Joe to see whether he is really great potential partner or just another guy who wants to bang her and leave the next day. Barbie now has to start investing into Joe because he also has options, he is a great, sexy and cool guy. Doug can believe what he wants to believe, but in her mind Joe‘s value is ten times higher than Doug’s. Doug is for couple days, Joe is maybe for years, decades. See where I’m going?

Why do you say she would she not consider Doug? Because of your own dislike of Doug, not because of your accurate understanding of how a woman thinks. In reality many times women try very hard with Doug, and invest a lot in him, and sometimes they fail and sometimes they succeed.

Women love nothing more than a good 'fix 'im up' story. They love to take the wild, unharnessed man full of potential, and nurse him into a powerful, dominant, and skilled operator who is loyal to her. And it's a very effective strategy - in principle.
...

The main problem, in my opinion, with the 'sexual marketplace' (as the red pillers like to call it) is that the foundations of effective mating strategy on both sides have been destroyed. Men are no longer capable of developing the balance of their inner beast and their inner father figure - that is, the concept associated with the desire to lead, to take care of and build things, to take responsibility for and defend things. And women are no longer capable of conceptualizing or properly enacting the path toward taming a man into something useful, because they lack any real concept of the balanced man and the process by which he is crafted from a boy. They tend to be either afraid of men or allow them to run roughshod over her, chaotically and impulsively trying to conjure into existence something they don't really understand.

This is because social conditioning has screwed everything up. Men nowadays are either puppy dogs, sheep or rampant wolves with no self control. This is because social conditioning has mercilessly attacked the concept of the wolf (the intermediary stage of the balanced man), such that the puppy dog has no chance to develop his wolf side before being railroaded into the herd as a sheep, or else escapes the herd entirely and lives a fringe, rebellious lifestyle evading the farmer and his gun, never developing any sense of loyalty and responsibility toward something greater than himself.

And because the wolf is vilified and hunted, females seldom come across this rare creature, and even though she longs to meet one and have him for herself (such is her biology), when she does so she reacts with either confusion and anxiety, or tries to mimic the farmer and whip him until he turns into a sheep, which, even when it works, does not satisfy her. She cannot conceptualize what lies in between the wolf and the sheep because society shows her no examples, and gives her no strategy to get there.

Luckily, she does have her biology (the true nature of which is again mercilessly attacked by social conditioning, because society wants to eradicate the wolf that plays a huge part in it), which gives her a certain amount of courage to try her hand with the wolf, and gives her certain instincts to be more effective, but since the wolf did not develop with any proper guidance, and has learned to fear and hate the farmer and his herd of which she is a part, the ingredients for him to become anything useful to her are severely lacking.

But even and so, the wolf is always the rarest and most valuable creature, because he alone has real potential. If he is lucky enough to find a guide who can turn him into a wise, calm, strategic, and forward-thinking pack leader without destroying him in the process, he is like refined gold and extremely rare, and any woman wants to get her hands on him. She will try again and again with wolves, often ruining herself and her future in the process, to make her dream - the dream that has been printed on her DNA - come true, but she can only do her part, and the part of the guide, which she cannot do (one cannot be the submissive, nurturing follower and the anvil that shapes the metal at the same time) is never done, and this results in chaos and failure of the whole project.
...

What is missing from your model is the fact that a successful sheep is still a sheep, at least a wolf can give a woman the chance to dream. That is why Doug (besides being a lot rarer than you think) is always in the picture, that is why the only real Joe is a Joe that used to be a Doug, and that is why she is always trying to turn a Doug into her very own Joe. And if a Doug can be turned into Joe without becoming a sheep, he stands a great chance of getting and keeping her investment, because he is an exceptionally rare and valuable catch, and especially if she played a part in his development.

The problem with your situation my friend (and I don't mean this as an insult, we are all trying to get where we want to be in life) is that you seem to be something of a successful sheep, and you cannot understand why high quality women are not terribly interested. In order to feel better about yourself, you have idealized your concept of a 'high quality woman' as one which immediately rejects a wolf, but in fact the only woman who immediately rejects a wolf is one which relies entirely on her place in the herd for her security and sense of value, which is not the case for pretty, ambitious and determined women. They, like the wolf, believe they can have anything they want, and what they want is to take a wolf and nurture him and make him loyal, there is no greater sense of achievement for any woman than that.

Part of the project of this site and Girls Chase in general, as I understand it, is to help men develop their inner wolf so that they represent high-value potential for women especially (and for life in general). That is why when guys here sense your narrow perspective, the only thing they can really say is 'become a wolf, then come back and we'll talk about it'. I suggest you do just that instead of being a sheep arguing with a pack of wolves about why he can't get what he wants.

 

[Skills]

I get you Skills, believe it or not this stuff is not new to me. Look for example for the ’two types of men’ article you posted. It differentiate between lover and provider but it is outdated. It somehow suggests that only lover (or alpha male) are good and attractive sexually, while provider is somehow dull and clueless guy. Though this is many times true, it is also sort of black and white thinking.

Imagine a woman, late 20s or early 30s. Let’s call her Barbie. She is pretty, she’s from good and happy family, and she wants to have her own family, kids. Of course Barbie also wants sex, so she goes out and meets Doug. He is cute, sexy, laid back and cool guy, and she is very attracted to him. He comes over and starts talking to her. He may be obvious or not but she reads from his cues that he is a lover only, he only wants sex. He is not interested in LTR. She knows he likely banged many other women so he is experienced, and sex could be good.

The same hour and place, Barbie also meets Joe. Joe is also cute, sexy, laid back and cool guy, she also feels quite attracted to him. He comes over and he also wants sex, but she senses provider in him. Now why would a guy who is a provider want sex? Is there something wrong with him? Well, he is just a guy like Doug. Guys want sex, there is no mystery in it, it is not a secret. She doesn’t have to think about it or solve some puzzles, it is simply given whether the guy shows it or not. She senses that Joe could be a good provider and he suggests he might be interested in LTR. Maybe he was in LTR before her, so he has already proven himself to be somehow stable, valuable provider.

What if Joe is also high value man? He seems quite valuable guy, he’s taking good care of his health, has a good job and has his life together. There are other women interested in him, he has options. Remember, she is looking for LTR and this guy Joe seems that he has a lot of offer, including great sex.

Which of these two guys is she going to consider for sex? It’s no brainer, she will go for Joe, maybe keep Doug hidden in the background, just in case.

So here is where we differ. A girl like Barbie especially if she is what I call ‘high quality girl’ and perhaps conservative will not even consider lover Doug. She will dump him on the spot because the other guy has much more offer than just sex. She will not risk that potential great mate Joe will see her hanging around Doug, she doesn’t want any of her friends to tell Joe that she was flirting, talking to and walking away with Doug. She will do anything to keep Doug hidden from Joe, and simplest thing is to dump him. Many times the safest thing is not to even talk to him no matter how sexy he is. Barbie will now fully focus on Joe. That usually means she will block Joe’s attempt for quick sex, and start testing the crap out of Joe to see whether he is really great potential partner or just another guy who wants to bang her and leave the next day. Barbie now has to start investing into Joe because he also has options, he is a great, sexy and cool guy. Doug can believe what he wants to believe, but in her mind Joe‘s value is ten times higher than Doug’s. Doug is for couple days, Joe is maybe for years, decades. See where I’m going?

She has to test Joe. If she doesn’t and sleeps with him right away she would feel too easy and too slutty around him. She can’t risk it because she senses Joe doesn’t want easy girl with high count, he can walk away from her. She has to postpone sex and maneuver him into a relationship. Unlike with Doug, Barbie has to invest time and energy into Joe to keep him around.

Do you know why is Barbie doing it? Because Barbie wants to have family, kids, that’s her biological drive. She needs stable and solid guy who will stat around and supports her, otherwise she will become another single mom who most valuable guys don’t want for anything else than sex.

Unfortunately this is not what’s usually happening. Barbie meets fifty different Dougs, and fifty different Dougs want sex with her, and then walk away without any obligation. All these fifty Dougs believe that they are the greatest lovers she’s ever met. Wow, a guy wants sex and fun, and then walk away, leaving behind mysterious aura so she can dream about him for years, and hope that he will come back one day. So Doug believes. How amazing, Barbie must think to herself, he wants sex and then leave. Barbie knows can’t run around with many Dougs so she doesn’t seem easy and slutty, yet she can’t find any good Joe either. Can you imagine Barbie’s frustration, she’s looking for a great and cool Joe with high value as a provider, she’s already met hundreds of different Dougs, but she can’t find any good Joe for good relationship? Can you imagine a guy just like Joe, who is high quality man, genuine, cool guy, and who wants to stick around? Forget the lover Doug, Joe’s value is off the roof.

In today’s reality, when Barbie eventually find a guy who wants LTR, he is a poor provider. She throws some basic tests at him and he fails, he doesn’t even try. She is afraid to test him more because she already knows he will fail. He lives in mommas basement. He has old broken car and changes his job every couple of months. He has no plans for future, he doesn’t take much care of himself. What is there to test? The second Barbie hears this she already knows this guy’s entire life, she already knows what’s his future. If Barbie really wants family she is now out of options, so she has to to bang Doug the same day and hopefully get pregnant, and then she has to hook some lower-end provider into providership, for at least couple of years so her kids have some family. There are no great Joes, most Joes are just average boring guys. After couple years Barbie can then dump him, take away his house and everything he saved, and she probably has to trash him too just so she doesn’t feel that bad about herself. Average Joe, unfortunately like many other average Joes is clueless, he will be broken, stripped of his provider-ship, and he will be seeking truth in Red Pill, or draining his anger in alcohol.

You cont. to kj and no talk from experience, i fucked a lot barbies(aka the exact same girl in your example), see, i am talking from experience you are just projecting "the how do i believe things are" is not like that.... I already explained more or less in the second article that i posted, it seems you only read the first, i put the second on porpuse cause i suspected you would bring exactly this objection here it is again, the seducer will calibrate to barbie and present himself dough with a % of joe to calibrate to the girl and situation, till he has slept with her couple of times.... Anyways any skill seducer knows that what women want and say is irrelevant, this is basic elementary seduction, her laundry list is irrelevant, what she said on a silly profile irrelevant... Once you sleep with her about 3-5 times and she is massively invested she will backwards rationalize and throw that list out of the window.... Dude how many barbies have you dated as a lover??? don't bother the answer is 0.... I have banged more barbies than i can count, same with a bunch of guys in this forum, that is how i know what you are talking about is total none sense... Again i sound like a broken record stop consuming red pill content, to get so called quality girls, you need to be able to get girlS in general, i also in honor of this post created a new post, please read it:

Special Girl - Relationships fundamentals part 2: Female psychology on SEX vs. Male psychology on CONNECTION Repost featuring newman/irish asshole

Background story: Alright guys, since a lot of you never had access to nextasf, and is now gone.... I will show you something that is extremely important this is based on a post by pure evil rip, who was at the time one of the top posters on Nextasf and my favorite poster, however, the writer is...

www.skilledseducer.com

 

[Mali]

@Mali

Let me ask you a serious question.

Why do you think you know the answers already?

Why even ask?

Take a step back and look at what you're doing...

Men who have walked this path further than you are telling you what's up ahead. And you're trying to tell them they are wrong even though you haven't been there to see. You think you know because it makes sense, but logic must be based on experience too.

Wick: Hitting escalation windows is a must. That is how you sweep a woman off her feet. If I think about it, anytime I lost a girl I liked, it was because I missed escalation windows.

^ Agree, I also lost good window like that with 'high quality girl'. Never got second chance as a lover. The whole situation was also complicated by work environment.

Wick: How you meet is important. The early stages of meeting anyone shapes the relationship long term. If you meet her in a dominant way, then you are likely to be wearing the pants and be seen as the leader of the relationship.

^ Here you sound like more like alpha male style, you are the dominant guy and she becomes submissive, she either sleeps with you or you walk, etc. I'm not saying it is a bad approach but I think there is much better way: that is cool, laid back, genuine attitude, even humbleness. This can be used by both, lover and provider. I'm also talking about work, so it is more complicated.


Wick: Why do you think you know the answers already?

^ I don't have the answers. Lover frame failed, all I have is provider frame. Provider frame seems to be surprisingly working, though it is slow and quite frustrating. I'm not really interested in going out and banging bunch of girls I don't care about. I would be perfectly happy with this one called gem. I was in LTR before and I truly miss it, and I'm simply looking for another one. It's a pain! The way I described guys like Joe and Doug, the same way I can describe women. There are many 'low quality women' that are looking for LTR. When I say 'low' I don't mean there is something wrong with that girl, I am simply not attracted enough, I don't feel the vibes. There are 'high quality women' who are behaving little bit differently, and I am really attracted to these kind of girls, I feel great vibes. I know they are also looking for LTR but they are more subtle, they have many options, they are very careful to go out with any guy who appears attractive to her. That's my experience.