How many 40 year old daygamers on here?

[bgwh]

well when the major of dating coaches obviously lie - its hard to tell. What you're seeing with lay reports is just the tip of the success - what you dont see is the long grind it takes to get there and there is always a grind - there's no masking it .

Even John Anthony who brags about his numbers admits having to gather 25,000 numbers for 1800 lays. His friend that he brags about (Bradicus) had to get 35k numbers for a 1000 lays.

Even if Bradicus managed to close half of approaches, that's still only a 1 in 70 ratio.

I haven't seen what John Anthony's approach to number ratio is, but even assuming an unrealistic 50% rate, that's still 1 in 30 at best.

Also have to point out that a huge portion of his phone numbers came from online, not approaching, so it's distorting the math. Those online numbers might be artificially increasing the average I calculated here.

I point out these 2 guys due to how much they brag about total numbers, implying that total number is indicative of being better than everyone.

But if you look at their actual approach-to-lay it's not higher than others it seems. So 1 in 30-40 seems normal, even for the guys bragging about being better than everyone.

 

[isildur1]

Even John Anthony who brags about his numbers admits having to gather 25,000 numbers for 1800 lays. His friend that he brags about (Bradicus) had to get 35k numbers for a 1000 lays.

Even if Bradicus managed to close half of approaches, that's still only a 1 in 70 ratio.

I haven't seen what John Anthony's approach to number ratio is, but even assuming an unrealistic 50% rate, that's still 1 in 30 at best.

Also have to point out that a huge portion of his phone numbers came from online, not approaching, so it's distorting the math. Those online numbers might be artificially increasing the average I calculated here.

I point out these 2 guys due to how much they brag about total numbers, implying that total number is indicative of being better than everyone.

But if you look at their actual approach-to-lay it's not higher than others it seems. So 1 in 30-40 seems normal, even for the guys bragging about being better than everyone.

paul janka was a male model with a harvard degree and he got laid 1 out every 10 numbers he closed - he also had to deal with LMR , shit dates and women not wanting to come back to the house- all in all it's tough for everyone .

John Anthony i just refuse to believe - too many red flags surrounding him - he's also in Brazil which is relative easy mode compared to places like London and New York where there are a lot more high quality men.

It's easy for no one - you need huge volume to really get anywhere - it took me around 700-900 approaches till i got my girlfriend for some context.

 

[isildur1]

My goal isn't to get laid from daygame though. At least not directly. I'm using daygame to build my network, social skills and confidence, and funnel hot girls into my network and events and personal brand building (social proof).

I do social circle game, which I think makes a lot more sense at my age. Daygame is just a way of adding girls into the circle.

Don't worry though, if a girl starts flirting on the street and looks horny, I would want to instadate and pull right there and then. And if I notice that I'm consistently not pulling the yes girls (due to being too focused on building the social circle) I will notice and try to correct so as to not dissapoint future horny yes girls.

yeah daygame can be a great way to expand your circle - when i gamed in london i would go to university open day events in September/October time and approached a lot of women there - it enabled me to make friends with women who were fresh to London and it helped me build up my social circle - just putting yourself out there can make a huge difference to your love and social life.

 

[bgwh]

paul janka was a male model with a harvard degree and he got laid 1 out every 10 numbers he closed - he also had to deal with LMR , shit dates and women not wanting to come back to the house- all in all it's tough for everyone .

John Anthony i just refuse to believe - too many red flags surrounding him - he's also in Brazil which is relative easy mode compared to places like London and New York where there are a lot more high quality men.

It's easy for no one - you need huge volume to really get anywhere - it took me around 700-900 approaches till i got my girlfriend for some context.

Yah I specifically bring up John Anthony because he brags so much. If anyone would exaggerated his approach-to-lay ratio, it would be him.

So even the guy who's the biggest bragard on the planet doesn't claim better ratios.

I forgot to say that a friend of mine did lots of coaching with him, says he basically counts a ton of SA lays into those numbers as well.

So even though he has those 2 improving his ratio (online and splenda dating), he still doesn't claim to break the ratio, nobody does.

 

[isildur1]

Yah I specifically bring up John Anthony because he brags so much. If anyone would exaggerated his approach-to-lay ratio, it would be him.

So even the guy who's the biggest bragard on the planet doesn't claim better ratios.

I forgot to say that a friend of mine did lots of coaching with him, says he basically counts a ton of SA lays into those numbers as well.

So even though he has those 2 improving his ratio (online and splenda dating), he still doesn't claim to break the ratio, nobody does.

yeah , the funny thing is all this red pill, dating dynamics talks there's very little that changes - even the highest smv men will face rejection and challenges so being proactive and starting as soon as possible is the best solution .

Heck i even daygamed with a male model once and saw him get blown out by 6 women in a row- i thought because he was a male model he was going to get every girl but that was far from the case.

 

[bgwh]

yeah , the funny thing is all this red pill, dating dynamics talks there's very little that changes - even the highest smv men will face rejection and challenges so being proactive and starting as soon as possible is the best solution .

Heck i even daygamed with a male model once and saw him get blown out by 6 women in a row- i thought because he was a male model he was going to get every girl but that was far from the case.

That's how I was sold on social circle game btw. Michael Sartain was explaining how you're going to get 1 in 40 anyway as a lay, so why not put everyone in your circle (befriend them). You're not going to lay more than 1 in 40 anyway.

That's not an endorsement of Sartain btw. I hear he and Luke parted ways because Luke believes in using daygame to fill up the circle. He's even said "some people use social circle as an excuse because they're afraid to cold approach".

I'm paraphrasing Sartain badly btw, but the thing I got out of it is that you're not going to bang most chicks even if you specifically game them with the purpose of banging them. It's still at best 1 in 40. You don't lose anything by not trying to bang them, and going the social route. It's still going to be 1 in 40. Except you're not burning down 39 potential friends/contacts/networking opportunities to bang 1 new person.

 

[isildur1]

That's how I was sold on social circle game btw. Michael Sartain was explaining how you're going to get 1 in 40 anyway as a lay, so why not put everyone in your circle (befriend them). You're not going to lay more than 1 in 40 anyway.

That's not an endorsement of Sartain btw. I hear he and Luke parted ways because Luke believes in using daygame to fill up the circle. He's even said "some people use social circle as an excuse because they're afraid to cold approach".

I'm paraphrasing Sartain badly btw, but the thing I got out of it is that you're not going to bang most chicks even if you specifically game them with the purpose of banging them. It's still at best 1 in 40. You don't lose anything by not trying to bang them, and going the social route. It's still going to be 1 in 40. Except you're not burning down 39 potential friends/contacts/networking opportunities to bang 1 new person.

i hate Sartain - he really is a problematic individual who shits on cold approach despite that the fact that it's a very effective way to meet women - him and Ice white do my head in - these people saying cold approach is useless when they themselves have never done it- i personally know a lot of people who've dated very successfully from it . People bitching about cold approach so they can upsell you a useless course or ai chat bot instead of encouraging men to just go out and people.

As for Sartain he is a chronic liar - who seemingly lies about his height non stop and comes across just really fake his ex girlfriend too seemed like a bitch . It's sad that we lost the likes of Tom Torero , Liam Mcrae and had them replaced with these frauds

 

[bgwh]

i hate Sartain - he really is a problematic individual who shits on cold approach despite that the fact that it's a very effective way to meet women - him and Ice white do my head in - these people saying cold approach is useless when they themselves have never done it- i personally know a lot of people who've dated very successfully from it . People bitching about cold approach so they can upsell you a useless course or ai chat bot instead of encouraging men to just go out and people.

As for Sartain he is a chronic liar - who seemingly lies about his height non stop and comes across just really fake his ex girlfriend too seemed like a bitch . It's sad that we lost the likes of Tom Torero , Liam Mcrae and had them replaced with these frauds

Yeah that's why I put the caveat there.

About him bashing cold approach, I think he's just a horrible communicator because he hasn't ironed out his terms yet. He's not bashing "cold approach", but "cold pickup". As in approaching random people with the intent of picking them up.

It just sounds like he's saying don't do cold approach, because again, he's really bad at this. When you actually study his programs you learn he really means use cold approach to funnel leads into your network of contacts. Don't game them while they're a cold contact, that's all he means. Use anything you want to build your network (cold or online or whatever), and then game inside your network.

He just means don't try to pick them up while they're still a cold contact, he doesn't mean don't cold approach, but he's really horrible at communicating it, and unless you get his program, you would think he's saying don't cold approach.

 

[isildur1]

Yeah that's why I put the caveat there.

About him bashing cold approach, I think he's just a horrible communicator because he hasn't ironed out his terms yet. He's not bashing "cold approach", but "cold pickup". As in approaching random people with the intent of picking them up.

It just sounds like he's saying don't do cold approach, because again, he's really bad at this. When you actually study his programs you learn he really means use cold approach to funnel leads into your network of contacts. Don't game them while they're a cold contact, that's all he means. Use anything you want to build your network (cold or online or whatever), and then game inside your network.

He just means don't try to pick them up while they're still a cold contact, he doesn't mean don't cold approach, but he's really horrible at communicating it, and unless you get his program, you would think he's saying don't cold approach.

he said in his videos that cold approach could get you arrested and that it was creepy - for me personally cold approach got me my girlfriend so i think he's deliberately misleading men so he can upsell them on bullshit social circle courses that don't even make sense when applied to logically. It's people like him that mislead men and speak charismatically on camera trying to act like they know about relationship dynamics when in reality they have little to prove other than a whole heap of lies and photos with hot women.

I just think he's being too convoluted - better off following Krausser and Torero and investing time finding good wingmen : https://mindful-masculinity.org/202...from-dating-coaches-marketers-course-sellers/

 

[bgwh]

he said in his videos that cold approach could get you arrested and that it was creepy - for me personally cold approach got me my girlfriend so i think he's deliberately misleading men so he can upsell them on bullshit social circle courses that don't even make sense when applied to logically. It's people like him that mislead men and speak charismatically on camera trying to act like they know about relationship dynamics when in reality they have little to prove other than a whole heap of lies and photos with hot women.

I just think he's being too convoluted - better off following Krausser and Torero and investing time finding good wingmen : https://mindful-masculinity.org/202...from-dating-coaches-marketers-course-sellers/

Or not following anyone and picking the best parts from different places as you like? I think they all have an angle, and they all exaggerate their thing as being superior and everything else being a scam. I prefer combining whats useful from different systems and not blindly following anything.

As I mentioned previously, I wasted 25 years trying to find wingmen to do traditional pua style game. Not a single person wanted to. Wish I had given up on it earlier, would have been so much further ahead. Traditional cold pickup is just not compatible with me as a person either. I prefer Luke's mix, where you cold approach to build up your brand (of course picking up "yes girls" if any reveal themselves). Btw I think Sartain picked up his best ideas from Luke anyway (I mean the social circle stuff that actually works). I'll find out when I watch Luke's programs, but that's my impression.

 

[yallapapi]

Even John Anthony who brags about his numbers admits having to gather 25,000 numbers for 1800 lays. His friend that he brags about (Bradicus) had to get 35k numbers for a 1000 lays.

I've gone through his material and he has a super aggressive style. He talks about getting 25-30 numbers a week, just spamming approaches. And apparently he is good at following up. His style is basically this:

Get the number
Ask for a date right away
If she doesn't reply, wait a few days and send a cute meme
Ask for the date again
Etc...

He's got a massive leadflow from all the approaches he does, but for people who take a more casual approach to game I wonder if this would be viable. Biggest problem with learning game is that to get good you have to basically become a nightlife person, gets harder as you get older and get a serious job + responsibilities. But like anything else you take what is useful to you and discard the rest.

he said in his videos that cold approach could get you arrested and that it was creepy - for me personally cold approach got me my girlfriend so i think he's deliberately misleading men so he can upsell them on bullshit social circle courses that don't even make sense when applied to logically. It's people like him that mislead men and speak charismatically on camera trying to act like they know about relationship dynamics when in reality they have little to prove other than a whole heap of lies and photos with hot women.

I've done Sartain's MOA program, he also advocates a type of "spam approach" but his is social media based. Basically what you're supposed to do is DM a bunch of girls, invite them to events, and then go to the events there to meet them. He's a little fuzzy on how to bridge the gap between "ok I invited you to something" to "ok now we're friends" which obviously requires some level of social skills. And yeah I do agree that he talks down the competition (cold approach) as a way to make the thing he's selling look more appealing.

 

[bgwh]

I've gone through his material and he has a super aggressive style. He talks about getting 25-30 numbers a week, just spamming approaches. And apparently he is good at following up. His style is basically this:

Get the number
Ask for a date right away
If she doesn't reply, wait a few days and send a cute meme
Ask for the date again
Etc...

He's got a massive leadflow from all the approaches he does, but for people who take a more casual approach to game I wonder if this would be viable. Biggest problem with learning game is that to get good you have to basically become a nightlife person, gets harder as you get older and get a serious job + responsibilities. But like anything else you take what is useful to you and discard the rest.


I've done Sartain's MOA program, he also advocates a type of "spam approach" but his is social media based. Basically what you're supposed to do is DM a bunch of girls, invite them to events, and then go to the events there to meet them. He's a little fuzzy on how to bridge the gap between "ok I invited you to something" to "ok now we're friends" which obviously requires some level of social skills. And yeah I do agree that he talks down the competition (cold approach) as a way to make the thing he's selling look more appealing.

I think the takeway lesson is that they all do volume. That's actually the main secret in business and other areas of life as well.

However you can't sell a program if you admit upfront that 90% of your end result is just the volume at the start of the funnel. Tweaking the funnel accounts for at most an additional 10% of results.

I have John Anthony's lead system thing, still haven't watched it because it seems like too much. I'm like, he admits he doesn't convert much more than someone without a complicated conversion system. What's the point?

Everyone in this industry bashes everyone else, but none of them claim to have significantly different end results. It's still 1 in 40 at the end of the day.

It's a bunch of people bashing other people about differences in that 5-10%

 

[isildur1]

I've gone through his material and he has a super aggressive style. He talks about getting 25-30 numbers a week, just spamming approaches. And apparently he is good at following up. His style is basically this:

Get the number
Ask for a date right away
If she doesn't reply, wait a few days and send a cute meme
Ask for the date again
Etc...

He's got a massive leadflow from all the approaches he does, but for people who take a more casual approach to game I wonder if this would be viable. Biggest problem with learning game is that to get good you have to basically become a nightlife person, gets harder as you get older and get a serious job + responsibilities. But like anything else you take what is useful to you and discard the rest.


I've done Sartain's MOA program, he also advocates a type of "spam approach" but his is social media based. Basically what you're supposed to do is DM a bunch of girls, invite them to events, and then go to the events there to meet them. He's a little fuzzy on how to bridge the gap between "ok I invited you to something" to "ok now we're friends" which obviously requires some level of social skills. And yeah I do agree that he talks down the competition (cold approach) as a way to make the thing he's selling look more appealing.

Spam dming girls is just ridiculous as 99.9 percent of men dont have an instagram worth of getting laid off spam dms.

The whole inviting them then hitting on them is kinda incrocnguent too ,

he's lied about his occupation and lied about his height numerous times in interviews so all in all seems like a suspect guy- if he's lying about these things then who knows what else he's lying about.

And does your average 30-50 year old joe have enough time for all this? dming random people them asking them to a party when you dont even know if they like you or not? i think for 99 percent of men his methods are unrealistic- it's pretty hilarious that hes got such a big following tbh despite not really peddling practical advice.

Him talking down cold approach is just his way of reeling fresh suckers in . There's no money to be made from social circle coaches or online dating coaches if people get laid from cold approach - hence why i believe that these two groups of coaches talk down on it so much so they upsell you crap later.

As for john anthony - there's accusations of him hiring hookers off seeking arrangements, banging numerous prostitutes and counting them as his actual lays and evidence that he sent money to a hooker too also a video of him getting drunk with his students - not very professional

 

[isildur1]

I think the takeway lesson is that they all do volume. That's actually the main secret in business and other areas of life as well.

However you can't sell a program if you admit upfront that 90% of your end result is just the volume at the start of the funnel. Tweaking the funnel accounts for at most an additional 10% of results.

I have John Anthony's lead system thing, still haven't watched it because it seems like too much. I'm like, he admits he doesn't convert much more than someone without a complicated conversion system. What's the point?

Everyone in this industry bashes everyone else, but none of them claim to have significantly different end results. It's still 1 in 40 at the end of the day.

It's a bunch of people bashing other people about differences in that 5-10%

yeah- most the industry has similar results - some men have stronger work ethic than others so obviously can boast more lays- when someone boasts about a lay you almost never hear about all the rejections they took to get that result - because getting rejections isn't really very marketable or talking about near misses can make you look like a loser- honestly so many liars in this space .

 

[bgwh]

Spam dming girls is just ridiculous as 99.9 percent of men dont have an instagram worth of getting laid off spam dms.

The whole inviting them then hitting on them is kinda incrocnguent too ,

he's lied about his occupation and lied about his height numerous times in interviews so all in all seems like a suspect guy- if he's lying about these things then who knows what else he's lying about.

And does your average 30-50 year old joe have enough time for all this? dming random people them asking them to a party when you dont even know if they like you or not? i think for 99 percent of men his methods are unrealistic- it's pretty hilarious that hes got such a big following tbh despite not really peddling practical advice.

Him talking down cold approach is just his way of reeling fresh suckers in . There's no money to be made from social circle coaches or online dating coaches if people get laid from cold approach - hence why i believe that these two groups of coaches talk down on it so much so they upsell you crap later.

As for john anthony - there's accusations of him hiring hookers off seeking arrangements, banging numerous prostitutes and counting them as his actual lays and evidence that he sent money to a hooker too also a video of him getting drunk with his students - not very professional

It's not "invite them somewhere else so you can hit on them there", you never hit on chicks.

You're the social guy who CAN ESCALATE when a chick is dtf.

It's kind of funny that I have to explain his system better than he does. He really sucks at explaining it due to being so focused on bashing alternatives and making it sound like he invented something completely different.

Fact is girls are sometimes dtf, and sometimes not. Traditional "burn the lead" pickup is especially insane if you're not in a huge city where you can afford to burn down all leads.

Social circle game makes a lot more sense for those of us who live in smaller cities.

- If a chick is dtf when you approach, go pickup mode.
- If she's not dtf, add her to your social sphere, fuck her later, or fuck her sister, or use her as social proof to approach other girls

Traditional pickup has you approach a chick and burn the lead. Either she bangs or you've burned that lead forever.

With a social circle method you put her in your sphere, and when she's in dick seeking mode you can escalate then.

In the meantime you derrive benefits other than sex.

 

[bgwh]

Spam dming girls is just ridiculous as 99.9 percent of men dont have an instagram worth of getting laid off spam dms.

The whole inviting them then hitting on them is kinda incrocnguent too ,

he's lied about his occupation and lied about his height numerous times in interviews so all in all seems like a suspect guy- if he's lying about these things then who knows what else he's lying about.

And does your average 30-50 year old joe have enough time for all this? dming random people them asking them to a party when you dont even know if they like you or not? i think for 99 percent of men his methods are unrealistic- it's pretty hilarious that hes got such a big following tbh despite not really peddling practical advice.

Him talking down cold approach is just his way of reeling fresh suckers in . There's no money to be made from social circle coaches or online dating coaches if people get laid from cold approach - hence why i believe that these two groups of coaches talk down on it so much so they upsell you crap later.

As for john anthony - there's accusations of him hiring hookers off seeking arrangements, banging numerous prostitutes and counting them as his actual lays and evidence that he sent money to a hooker too also a video of him getting drunk with his students - not very professional

While I don't know if he counts paid hookers in his number, I know from a friend a huge portion of his lays are from splenda dating. In fact he doesn't even hide it. He just has never revealed what percentage of his lays are Splenda lays, we don't know.

For those who don't know Splenda dating is when you go on a sugar dating site, give a girl the wrong impression that you might be a generous sugar daddy, get a few freebie lays and then never pay her.

John Anthony doesn't hide he does this, in fact he sold a guide on how to do it. He just doesn't spell out how many of his lays were from this method. According to my friend who worked with him, it's a lot of his lays.

 

[yallapapi]

For those who don't know Splenda dating is when you go on a sugar dating site, give a girl the wrong impression that you might be a generous sugar daddy, get a few freebie lays and then never pay her.

I thought Splenda dating was where you buy her cigarettes or pay to get her nails done or something as opposed to buying her $5000 Chanel bags.

You're the social guy who CAN ESCALATE when a chick is dtf.

This is sort of correct. Michael basically says that if you have a lot of female friends, that you will get automatic social proof everywhere you go when you bring them with and it will make it easier for you to bang them. And yes, you will end up fucking your friends but it'll just be a casual thing and not (necessarily) turn into a relationship.

Michael's course is basically how to be a promoter without calling yourself a promoter with a heavy emphasis on utilizing the social benefits of the promoter lifestyle.

And does your average 30-50 year old joe have enough time for all this? dming random people them asking them to a party when you dont even know if they like you or not? i think for 99 percent of men his methods are unrealistic- it's pretty hilarious that hes got such a big following tbh despite not really peddling practical advice.

Bottom line is that you could say that about any form of dating practice, whether it be social circle, cold approach, online, matchmaking, etc. Shit takes time no matter what. Either you're spending time doing approaches, spending time going to events, spending time DMing girls, spending time going on dates... there's no getting around that. The question is WHAT do you want to spend your time on.

All these guys are "legit" but maybe embellish their claims a little bit. I know for a fact Michael gets laid like a rockstar, as much hate as he gets he is definitely someone to emulate if you want to fuck a bunch of hot girls with big silicone titties.

 

[yallapapi]

However you can't sell a program if you admit upfront that 90% of your end result is just the volume at the start of the funnel. Tweaking the funnel accounts for at most an additional 10% of results.

He admits to doing volume I think, and from what I've seen of his infield he doesn't hide the fact that he is approaching like a madman on the street. I don't think there's anything wrong with that approach either, it's only through doing volume that you will get good - whether that's pickup or anything. Shooting 1000 free throws will get you better faster than shooting 10 but trying to shoot the perfect free throw every time. Shit is the same .

 

[bgwh]

I thought Splenda dating was where you buy her cigarettes or pay to get her nails done or something as opposed to buying her $5000 Chanel bags.


This is sort of correct. Michael basically says that if you have a lot of female friends, that you will get automatic social proof everywhere you go when you bring them with and it will make it easier for you to bang them. And yes, you will end up fucking your friends but it'll just be a casual thing and not (necessarily) turn into a relationship.

Michael's course is basically how to be a promoter without calling yourself a promoter with a heavy emphasis on utilizing the social benefits of the promoter lifestyle.

Bottom line is that you could say that about any form of dating practice, whether it be social circle, cold approach, online, matchmaking, etc. Shit takes time no matter what. Either you're spending time doing approaches, spending time going to events, spending time DMing girls, spending time going on dates... there's no getting around that. The question is WHAT do you want to spend your time on.

All these guys are "legit" but maybe embellish their claims a little bit. I know for a fact Michael gets laid like a rockstar, as much hate as he gets he is definitely someone to emulate if you want to fuck a bunch of hot girls with big silicone titties.

I just came back to edit the error in my post. I was thinking of salt dating. Splenda dating is when you're a cheap sugar daddy. Salt dating is when you lead the girl on, bang her and she doesn't get anything. John Anthony does salt dating and teaches salt dating. It's when chicks think think they're auditioning for the he sugar baby role for a rich guy, but it's really just a dude lying to them about being a sugar daddy. His students keep getting banned from sugar daddy websites and have to resort to vpns and fake identities coz the girls keep turning them in. If John Anthony is counting those salty lays in his numbers (and it seems that he is), that's kind of shitty.

 

[bgwh]

He admits to doing volume I think, and from what I've seen of his infield he doesn't hide the fact that he is approaching like a madman on the street. I don't think there's anything wrong with that approach either, it's only through doing volume that you will get good - whether that's pickup or anything. Shooting 1000 free throws will get you better faster than shooting 10 but trying to shoot the perfect free throw every time. Shit is the same .

He might not hide the volume, but then he claims the secret to his number of lays is his "super optimized game and conversion systems". He proactively keeps saying this. When the fact is that any guy using any method would have similar results with that volume.