None of the Sexual Gambits work

[Renegade]

So you want to be the opposite of cool and positive?
Why?

You are confusing your value as a person to the value you bring to the opposite sex.
Two completely different things.

Though judging by your current attitude, my guess is even guys would not want to hang wit you right now...need to change that asap dude!

This is the most helpfull and positive-oriented community I've been a part of (seduction or otherwise).
Now if you need help beyond improving yourself and getting good with women, this will never be the right place!
(nor any other forum would be for that matter).

Everyone who needs help with women, needs help beyond that. The seemingly surface issues always run deeper. Learning a technique or a new mindset doesn't give us the deep therapeutic work we really need.

I want to be positive and cool, when I feel like it. My point is that right now, I'm not positive. And that's okay. I shouldn't need to strive to be someone I'm not, just to get some female attention. I have value for women even as a total "chump". Everyone has value and deserves to be loved.

"You need to change asap!" - THIS is the exact problem with self-help communitites. No, you don't need to change to have friends. If someone doesn't want to be around me just because I'm not cool or positive, that's on them. Friends should be there for you in any situation.

I feel like this community is full of guys (like myself) who weren't loved by their parents, and now they compensate for it by trying to become "better". But we all are good enough already! No need to work on anything.

 

[Renegade]

lol fuck off

Any reason for that hostile reply? I never insulted you in my posts, so why?

 

[Atlas IV]

Learning a technique or a new mindset doesn't give us the deep therapeutic work we really need.

Why are you looking to PUA for therapy? That's not what this is at all.

I feel like this community is full of guys (like myself) who weren't loved by their parents, and now they compensate for it by trying to become "better". But we all are good enough already! No need to work on anything.

This is the opposite of the self-help mindset. You seem to think that everyone is perfect just the way they are and it's the world that needs to change.

Being authentic starts with accepting that you're imperfect, and there are things you can improve about yourself. If you're not willing to change, I don't think any of us here can help you.

Maybe check out Andrew Tate's War Room? The Manosphere is all about venting frustration and blaming their own shortcomings on external factors. They might be your crowd.

 

[James D]

So sorry but I'm going to embrace my frustration right now. Some girls might not like that but how is your approach (faking positivity) better than being authentic?

All right, good luck man.

The whole point of your post was that the gambits do not work and we've made a good case why they do work.

We also pointed out what could be holding you back from reaping the benefits of the gambits, so that you can correct it and start laying those eastern European beauties.

Now, if you choose to remain the frustrated guy, that's fine.

But in 3 months time when you've laid zero chicks from this approach, be wary of creating another post saying that X or Y tactic doesn't work.

Or, if you've laid a fair amount from this frustration style game, then let us know. We'll send all frustrated guys your way.

 

[Renegade]

All right, good luck man.

The whole point of your post was that the gambits do not work and we've made a good case why they do work.

We also pointed out what could be holding you back from reaping the benefits of the gambits, so that you can correct it and start laying those eastern European beauties.

Now, if you choose to remain the frustrated guy, that's fine.

But in 3 months time when you've laid zero chicks from this approach, be wary of creating another post saying that X or Y tactic doesn't work.

Or, if you've laid a fair amount from this frustration style game, then let us know. We'll send all frustrated guys your way.

No I understood the feedback about the gambits and next time I'll surely do it better. But that's obvious.

The focus of the post has moved to a way more important point, and that's the fact that people here seem to think that you need to be "X" to seduce girls. And they shame those who don't fit their criteria of good enough. That's not okay.

I also didn't at any point make a decision to remain a frustrated guy. If I could just decide to stop being frustrated, I would. You're basically saying "just stop being depressed ffs!". That's not how mental health works.

And getting laid is not the definition of success. It's not something to measure. It can be a good side benefit, yyes. But our goal is to be authentic here. To live good lives and have good values. Not to get results.

 

[Renegade]

Why are you looking to PUA for therapy? That's not what this is at all.


This is the opposite of the self-help mindset. You seem to think that everyone is perfect just the way they are and it's the world that needs to change.

Being authentic starts with accepting that you're imperfect, and there are things you can improve about yourself. If you're not willing to change, I don't think any of us here can help you.

Maybe check out Andrew Tate's War Room? The Manosphere is all about venting frustration and blaming their own shortcomings on external factors. They might be your crowd.

I'm not looking for therapy here, I'm sayin that it SHOULD be way more therapeutic. Because all of the problems that we solve with techniques and gambits, would come to us naturally if we actually did the deep work.

THere's blaming and there's explaining. We need to understand where our issues stem from, so that we can tackle them at the core! And not just put band-aids (technqiues, gambits..) over the wounds.

And how did you come to the assumption that I don't want to change? You're not reading the context. I want to change, but not for getting girls. I want to be able to do it for myself. But I don't have that motivation yet.

One question I have never seen answered here is, how do you improve for yourself, when all you've ever done was to get girls? I want to have that motivation to change. But I don't have it yet. What do I do?

 

[Atlas IV]

And getting laid is not the definition of success.

Lol man you really are in the wrong forum.

 

[POB]

Everyone who needs help with women, needs help beyond that.

Not really.

The seemingly surface issues always run deeper. Learning a technique or a new mindset doesn't give us the deep therapeutic work we really need.

Agree! Then why are you seeking therapeutic help on a seduction forum?

My point is that right now, I'm not positive. And that's okay.

You are coping hard my man.
Nobody should feel negative as default.

I shouldn't need to strive to be someone I'm not, just to get some female attention.

You are the only person here saying this.

I have value for women even as a total "chump". Everyone has value and deserves to be loved.

Lol, and how is that working for you?
Is it good to be a chump?

"You need to change asap!" - THIS is the exact problem with self-help communitites. No, you don't need to change to have friends. If someone doesn't want to be around me just because I'm not cool or positive, that's on them. Friends should be there for you in any situation.

Yep, victim mentality dialed to 11.
This is NOT a self-help community, nor a therapeutic community, nor a kumbaya let's love everybody and be happy type of place.
Over here people strive and struggle HARD to get better because they are just sick of being the victims of their own limitations with women.
Simple as that. BTW, this is the last good place to learn this stuff without being poisoned by red pill dogmas.

I feel like this community is full of guys (like myself) who weren't loved by their parents, and now they compensate for it by trying to become "better".

Nope, most guys here are alright and have no family issues.
They just want a better sex life.

But we all are good enough already! No need to work on anything.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=mniKDlDNJnI

 

[Renegade]

Not really.

Agree! Then why are you seeking therapeutic help on a seduction forum?

You are coping hard my man.
Nobody should feel negative as default.

You are the only person here saying this.

Lol, and how is that working for you?
Is it good to be a chump?

Yep, victim mentality dialed to 11.
This is NOT a self-help community, nor a therapeutic community, nor a kumbaya let's love everybody and be happy type of place.
Over here people strive and struggle HARD to get better because they are just sick of being the victims of their own limitations with women.
Simple as that. BTW, this is the last good place to learn this stuff without being poisoned by red pill dogmas.

Nope, most guys here are alright and have no family issues.
They just want a better sex life.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=mniKDlDNJnI

So where do you think the problems that guys here have come from? Where do you think low self worth comes from?

Guys who had good enough parents were taught to be confident, and were well socialised. They don't need forums like this. They are "naturals".

And then there are guys who didn't get to have a good social life. Didn't get that many experiences with women. And there's always a reason for this. We weren't born with limitations.

And yes it's good that we are working on ourselves. But mostly this comes from a feeling of inferiority - "I'll be good enough when I can finally seduce women". It's a bad approach. We need to learn we have value first, even as "nobodies". Then, the insiration to learn better social skills will come.

 

[Renegade]

Lol man you really are in the wrong forum.

Or maybe I'm pointing to something that needs to change in these communities as a whole? Is giving feedback on the whole thing bad?

I've been in many communities and most of my friends are dating coaches. What I see every time is that their students need to learn they have value as they are RIGHT NOW. They lack (self) love, and seek for it in wrong places. They need therapy and loving friends, not self-help.

 

[Lantern]

Okay, there's a lot of stuff I could comment on, but I don't want to make this too big. For context, I'm also from the same cultural region, I do think there's some differences one has to take into account with regard to different cultures, but those mosty mean the details of execution, the principles stay the same. Women are women.

The guys in this topic are giving you good advice, you need to drop your defensives and read it carefully. There's no need for therapy, nor are people here "healing their inner child" or whatever. People are on this forum from various backgorunds and various goals (the focus is on seducer lifestyle, yes, but it's also the best resource on LTRs and everything else).

Anyway, there's one thing that caught my eye that noone has commented yet. You talk about being authentic this authentic that, and then you drop this one:

And yes there is an element of anger, because I want to move under the radar. It's way too obvious what I'm trying to do if I do it with a sexual undertone. But with frustration, the girl can be like "ah, he just wanted to vent. aight."

So. You want to lie to the women.

How's that authentic?

What's the point of sex talk? It's to a) sexualise the interaction and b) get her excited or at least curious about sex with you. And arguably, c) create a more "lover" frame. You can do all of this without sex talk, if you don't find it working. Hell, it works for me. But what doesn't work for me is having an interaction with a woman that I don't manage to sexualise. Or to use different language, to create a masculine-feminine polarity. If your interaction with a girl is one she could have with a gay friend, you're doing it wrong.

From your quote above, it follows your goal is to AVOID sexualising the interaction ("it's way too obvious what I'm trying to do"). Why would you want to hide what you're trying to do? Why do you think she went on a date with you, so you can talk about the situation in the Middle East? She WANTS your sexuality. What she gets is your frustration. She doesn't go "ah, he just wanted to vent. aight" she goes "oh, he just wants to vent. Bugger, I was hoping he wanted to give me a good dicking."

You are hiding your DESIRE for her, which is natural, logical and even attractive when presented correctly. Nothing authentic about that. And untill you fix that neither venting, nor sex talk, nor anthing else will give you results.

 

[Jan]

Thank you. However I must say that I am tired of having to fake everything, which is a common theme all around this site. One of my main values in life is authenticity. And when I feel frustrated, I think I should have the right to express that with anyone. Even in my gambits.

I agree with you that you should not fake things and instead express your real self, including your anger. If you've really been faking it for so long, this explains why you are not getting results.

I encourage you to express your anger, even in front of the girls. Just make sure you don't hurt anyone. Remember, expressing emotions is about communicating to others (and to yourself publicly) what you really think and feel. It's not about hurting others.

Do it and you will know in real life what fully and authentically expressing yourself is really like, and what others think and feel when you express anger.

This is part 1. You are correct about this part. Just do it.

Another thing is believing that delivering sexual gambits from the state of anger will get you laid. It won't. That's what everyone is trying to tell you.

I think what most people are trying to tell you is that sexual gambits are delivered either from a calm, friend like emotional state, or from a sexual state. It's as simple as that.

But you are refusing to believe that. You even feel entitled somehow. You are somehow arguing that the gambits MUST work from any emotional state you like (anger in this case), just because you are expressing your true self.

No! You indeed have a right to express your self authentically (provided you don't hurt others) BUT you don't have a right to expect to create a sexual state in woman, just because you expressing yourself. That's entitlement combined with wishful thinking.

Expressing yourself can have a positive impact on the woman, but it won't make the gambits create sexual state in her!!!

The positive impact it can create in women is that of TRUST. If you express your anger fully in front of her, and you won't hurt anyone in the process, she will see two positives in you:

1) the guy is not a faker - VALUE
2) the guy is not a pushover - VALUE
3) the guy has expressed all his 'negative' emotions and didn't her me or anyone else in process. - SAFETY

BUT THAT'S IT!!! As you can see I didn't mention sexual stimulation in this list. And because there is no sexual stimulation, you should not expect to get laid on anger driven gambits. The list shows you what you can get.

To sum up:

What you should do:

1) Express your anger and expect not to get laid

2) Learn from your anger. Anger is about setting boundaries. Understand yourself better through anger. You can learn two things:
a) because you didn't express your anger, you also didn't express your boundaries. Now you finally expressed your boundaries, have people changed and treat you different? If so, good. You have realistic expectations but you didn't communicated them. Now, you need to continue expressing your true self, and problem is fixed.
b) You expressed your boundaries and people disagree with you. They think your boundaries are unrealistic. In this case, you are entitled. You should rethink your boundaries and not blame others. Communicating your boundaries is not enough. You should do internal introspection and exprerimentation.

3) Once you've worked on your anger to the point that you can live most of your live calmly, go and deliver sexual gambits from the state of calm and expect to get laid.

Good luck.

 

[Atlas IV]

Or maybe I'm pointing to something that needs to change in these communities as a whole? Is giving feedback on the whole thing bad?

I've been in many communities and most of my friends are dating coaches. What I see every time is that their students need to learn they have value as they are RIGHT NOW. They lack (self) love, and seek for it in wrong places. They need therapy and loving friends, not self-help.

Nope. I have a very healthy social life and positive mindset. Growing up I got plenty of love from my parents and family, and I'm very affectionate and thoughtful with all the girls I date.

I'm sorry you were neglected as a child and obviously have some deep unresolved trauma. But please don't assume everyone here is messed up in the same way.

 

[Will_V]

Maybe you aren't like this, but when I see a frustrated guy, I'm not disgusted. I would talk to him and try to help him, or just be there for him. I would enjoy being around him because he is AUTHENTIC. Not acting like everything is ok.

When you see a guy suffering, don't you want him to be at ease, calm, relaxed, in control?

At any rate, this has nothing to do with sexual gambits. How can you possibly think it's ok to vent at the same time that you're using a sexual gambit? That makes no sense. Do you have any idea what the purpose of the gambit is? Do you also want to be able to vent while you're having sex? While you're making a presentation at work? Maybe actors should be able to vent in the middle of the movie whenever they feel like it?

If you want to let out your negative emotions, there's a time and place for that, but it's not in the middle of a seduction.

 

[KJ Francis]

@James D we are NOT having tea tonight. I am not that kind of girl

@Renegade you say you want to be authentic, but why does it make you so angry that women have such a hard time finding a guy who can make them feel what you describe below?

women have it way harder! To find a guy who can stimulate you both physically and mentally, who can make you feel safe yet desired... that's really goddamn difficult! Ugh, I really do hate this!"

I say all of that non-sarcastically of course. My thought process: it seems like I'm just venting, but I'm in fact showing prizable traits.

Does this actually make you feel so angry on their behalf? What is this, "black knighting"? It sounds very inauthentic. You said you use anger because you don't know how else to transition into the gambit.

If you have authentic frustrations with women and want to air them out to women, go ahead... But it will not paint you as attractive to her. If you were a movie director and complained that the critics all said your latest movie sucked, sure you could complain about this to people authentically and they may empathize with you... But they will probably be considering there is a reason the critics didn't like it, and probably won't be all that interested in checking out your movie. You might still get a hug.

We don't want to give you a hug. We want you to be able to get more than a hug. But not from us either.

 

[topcat]

Any reason for that hostile reply? I never insulted you in my posts, so why?

You’re begging for sympathy on a self improvement forum. If you continue in the same vain, you’ll hear the same from the others eventually…
I just lack patience.

 

[Erioc]

Hey Chase,

thank you for the response. I think there's a big problem in your approach:

Is what Renegade said to Chase in this thread.

Maybe Renegade should just heed Chase's advice and come back when he's done that?

I mean...I understand him.

Sex gambits don't work because girls don't vibe with him when he's frustrated and entitled. He doesn't think that's good. And Chase should rethink his approach and the Seduction Community should become the Therapeutic Community.

I know I'm feeding the troll but whatever...send the wrath my way.

@Renegade , please accept the world, don't expect it to change for you. It's easier that way.

 

[POB]

So where do you think the problems that guys here have come from? Where do you think low self worth comes from?

From yourself, and nobody else.

Guys who had good enough parents were taught to be confident, and were well socialised. They don't need forums like this. They are "naturals".

Hahahahahahaha.
Tell that to my old shy and self-absorbed self who got ditched countless times.
BTW, my parents were the most loving and caring mom and dad I could ever have hoped for.

And then there are guys who didn't get to have a good social life. Didn't get that many experiences with women. And there's always a reason for this.

There is.
The reason is YOU.
Unless you accept this and seek professional help to remove those barriers, you will never improve.

And yes it's good that we are working on ourselves. But mostly this comes from a feeling of inferiority - "I'll be good enough when I can finally seduce women".

Who said that?
Do a quick forum search and you will see tons of posts debunking this mith.
Being good with women is just one of the many aspects of becoming a complete man.
Not the end goal by any means.

It's a bad approach. We need to learn we have value first, even as "nobodies".

You don't learn this shit.
You KNOW.
That's the main difference of guys who are pretending to guys that are.
But mind you that a lot of this "value", as you call it, comes from having a positive attitude and going after what you want, no matter the cost.

Most guys here that have sucess started from ground zero and slowly worked their way to the top.
And a lot of them followed a veteran's advice, even when it contradicted their mindset at the time.
(which is something you are clearly oblivious to).

Anyway, I said my piece.
Not gonna comment here anymore.

Good luck to ya, hope you come around and improve (for real).

 

[Skills]

@Renegade,



@Teevster (the originator of those sex talk gambits) is not from the U.S., he is from Western Europe.

I have been with him in-field multiple times in Eastern Europe and watched him use sex talk on women there.

It works very, very well. It also looks and sounds COMPLETELY different from what you are attempting here!

Rule of thumb on trying new techniques (or anything new, really):

1. The first thing you do is to go out and use them EXACTLY as described, verbatim, without trying to put your own spin on it. When it is a novel technique you do not have experience with, your intuition is almost without fail going to be WRONG. You need to get a baseline of how the technique works by using it exactly as prescribed first, and doing so a sufficient number of times (say trying it exactly as taught, on 20x different women).
   
   
2. Only once you have a baseline for how the technique works as prescribed can you then try throwing your own stuff in there (i.e., "I'm going to do sex talk, but this time frame it in an angry/venting way!"). WHAT YOU WILL FIND, time and again, is that you initial creative modifications fall very flat. You will scratch your head over this, and wonder why the original technique works, but your creative modifications don't. The reason is because you do not yet understand what is making the technique work at a DEEP level.
   
   
3. Over time and use, your brain will start to understand exactly WHY the technique works, at a deep and intuitive level. At that point, you will begin to have ideas about new things you can try, and this time they will actually work. When your creative ideas work, it is because you actually get what is going on with women under the hood when you do this thing.

Right now, you don't understand sex talk, and you don't understand why it would work or why the modified version you are running does not work.

If you want to use it, you need to try your very best to use it precisely as described by Teevster, and on a sufficient number of girls.

You go out, approach as if you are a student with the teacher standing just over his shoulder, and even if you feel ridiculous you do it EXACTLY as described -- then repeat on another 19 girls.

That will give you your baseline.

Until you do that, you have NOT tried sex talk.

Instead, you are doing something of your own devising. Call it "sour sex talk", perhaps.

Cheers!
Chase

Oh so he was freestyling ok... I am not familiar with that gambit.... Your field testing is off cause you were freestyling doing your own spin ....

At op i seen guys that were angry and frustrated just like you, and to the point they hated women... When it click for them, they totally changed and were not angry anymore... So don't think your state is permanent....

 

[Renegade]

Is what Renegade said to Chase in this thread.

Maybe Renegade should just heed Chase's advice and come back when he's done that?

I mean...I understand him.

Sex gambits don't work because girls don't vibe with him when he's frustrated and entitled. He doesn't think that's good. And Chase should rethink his approach and the Seduction Community should become the Therapeutic Community.

I know I'm feeding the troll but whatever...send the wrath my way.

@Renegade , please accept the world, don't expect it to change for you. It's easier that way.

It's easier to accept the world as it is, but since when do we choose the easier option? The world is messed up in SO MANY ways. Seduction communities aren't perfect either. They're far from it. And I'm shining light on one of the issues.

It's our responsibility to try and make the world a better place.