None of the Sexual Gambits work

[Renegade]

I was being authentic

Bro, I just need to know why you decided to troll me in this instance. Many people react like this towards me. And here you can help me understand this so that I can stop getting bullied everywhere.

Am I being ridiculed for wanting to be authentic, even if the authentic me is being a frustrated incel?

 

[Skills]

The problem is that I'm not actively avoiding being myself. It's that I have no idea what that "myself" even is. Like I feel no core idenitity. Nothing. I want to optimize and build on something, but there is no core me.

This beyond seduction get therapy tbh

 

[Renegade]

What is the reason for your trauma and depression???

I was born to homeless parents who were physically abusive and addicted to drugs. I had to be removed from them, but my adoptive parents were also abusive and neglecting. So that's where the trauma came from - being beaten out of nowhere, being cut with knives for their satisfaction, s.ually assaulted, etc.

Now these 20 years of being in that enviroment manifest as Complex Trauma, a difficult condition to heal from. Depression, anxiety, ADHD, OCD, narcissism.... are all symptoms of a traumatic childhood.

 

[Skills]

Bro, I just need to know why you decided to troll me in this instance. Many people react like this towards me. And here you can help me understand this so that I can stop getting bullied everywhere.

Am I being ridiculed for wanting to be authentic, even if the authentic me is being a frustrated incel?

Brah! I don't know who i am... I was joking no that deep... If you read my post and videos... You will get is just me having fun..

 

[Renegade]

This beyond seduction get therapy tbh

As I replied to Chase, I've had specialized trauma therapy for 3 years now. It works but really slow (it's supposed to). But I believe that after 3 years of therapy and working on myself, I could go out there again and live.

 

[Renegade]

Brah! I don't know who i am... I was joking no that deep... If you read my post and videos... You will get is just me having fun..

Ok, let's leave it at that. It's just good to think about why we joke about things we joke about, what made us say what we said.. introspection is extremely important.

There is purpose behind all of our behaviors, we just can't always see it because it's an unconscious process.

 

[Chase]

I would like to know what your practical tip would be here, because I'm literally doing everything I can about my mental health. I know so much about trauma recovery by now that I'm basically training my therapists.

My practical tip is to use the method in this article:

How to Overcome Depression

Was discussing this on a forum with a guy; I used to talk about it a fair amount, some time back, but it's sort of faded from my life in significance. It just isn't on my mind much these days anymore, but I do remember how big a deal it was for me once, and hopefully my story and process can...

www.girlschase.com

But I can tell you: I was still a bit frustrated and depressed when I was first learning seduction.

I NEVER let that on with women, because I know how big of a turnoff it is.

If you want to be authentic, take a group therapy session and be authentic there.

The mating dance is not the place you air out your dirty laundry.

I have seen a lot of guys try it over the years.

It does not work. It never works.

For the same reason that a male lion can't approach a lioness in heat, start complaining to her in frustrated lion growls about how hard his life is, and have that result in the lioness wanting to mate.

She is just going to saunter off and find a strong proud lion to sire her offspring instead.

Then the complaint-lion wanders over to a group of lion pickup artists and complains about how the lion pickup artists need to give him free therapy because the lionesses won't.

Until you get out of this mind labyrinth where you are so intensely self-focused that you cannot see how off-putting this behavior is to everyone who encounters you, you are going to keep behaving in repellant ways that send people fleeing, then get frustrated that people keep fleeing and demand that they stick around and accommodate you, no matter how unpleasant you make that for them. And it won't work, because no one is stupid enough to do that.

This is the secret to life:

PEOPLE WHO PUT GOOD STUFF OUT THERE GET GOOD STUFF BACK.

PEOPLE WHO PUT OUT COMPLAINTS, NEGATIVITY, VICTIMIZATION, ETC., EITHER SEND EVERYONE ELSE FLEEING OR ELSE THEY JUST ATTRACT A BUNCH MORE POISON AND TOXICITY BACK IN.

Stop dumping black poisonous ooze out of yourself over everyone and everything and they will stop running away from you.

Or keep doing it and keep being frustrated that everyone keeps running away.

You may think "Well I have all this poison inside, I just have to get it out! I can only get it out by dumping it all over anyone who will listen!" but what you do not realize is that so long as you keep dumping it out, more will well up from the spring inside. It is an endless font of poisonous goo that no amount of outpouring will ever end.

The only way to stop it is to do what I wrote in that article:

You must go to THE SOURCE (i.e., YOUR MIND) and RIP THE SOURCE OF THE POISON OUT, and REPLACE IT WITH LIGHT.

That is the ONLY thing that can fix it.

And no one else but you can do it for you.

 

[Renegade]

My practical tip is to use the method in this article:

How to Overcome Depression

Was discussing this on a forum with a guy; I used to talk about it a fair amount, some time back, but it's sort of faded from my life in significance. It just isn't on my mind much these days anymore, but I do remember how big a deal it was for me once, and hopefully my story and process can...

www.girlschase.com

But I can tell you: I was still a bit frustrated and depressed when I was first learning seduction.

I NEVER let that on with women, because I know how big of a turnoff it is.

If you want to be authentic, take a group therapy session and be authentic there.

The mating dance is not the place you air out your dirty laundry.

I have seen a lot of guys try it over the years.

It does not work. It never works.

For the same reason that a male lion can't approach a lioness in heat, start complaining to her in frustrated lion growls about how hard his life is, and have that result in the lioness wanting to mate.

She is just going to saunter off and find a strong proud lion to sire her offspring instead.

Then the complaint-lion wanders over to a group of lion pickup artists and complains about how the lion pickup artists need to give him free therapy because the lionesses won't.

Until you get out of this mind labyrinth where you are so intensely self-focused that you cannot see how off-putting this behavior is to everyone who encounters you, you are going to keep behaving in repellant ways that send people fleeing, then get frustrated that people keep fleeing and demand that they stick around and accommodate you, no matter how unpleasant you make that for them. And it won't work, because no one is stupid enough to do that.

This is the secret to life:

PEOPLE WHO PUT GOOD STUFF OUT THERE GET GOOD STUFF BACK.

PEOPLE WHO PUT OUT COMPLAINTS, NEGATIVITY, VICTIMIZATION, ETC., EITHER SEND EVERYONE ELSE FLEEING OR ELSE THEY JUST ATTRACT A BUNCH MORE POISON AND TOXICITY BACK IN.

Stop dumping black poisonous ooze out of yourself over everyone and everything and they will stop running away from you.

Or keep doing it and keep being frustrated that everyone keeps running away.

You may think "Well I have all this poison inside, I just have to get it out! I can only get it out by dumping it all over anyone who will listen!" but what you do not realize is that so long as you keep dumping it out, more will well up from the spring inside. It is an endless font of poisonous goo that no amount of outpouring will ever end.

The only way to stop it is to do what I wrote in that article:

You must go to THE SOURCE (i.e., YOUR MIND) and RIP THE SOURCE OF THE POISON OUT, and REPLACE IT WITH LIGHT.

That is the ONLY thing that can fix it.

And no one else but you can do it for you.

That makes sense and actually is even a little motivating.

It would be silly to assume I put put negativity and toxicity with everyone I meet. I am in victim mode only on the internet, in my support groups, and in therapy. I don't think it's a good idea to tell me I can't be "toxic" anywhere. I get that you mostly mean in seduction, but it sounds like you are telling me to not even let the painful stuff out in therapy.

With other people I am pretty much normal, but they still seem to avoid me, and I know the reason: it's that even when I act normal, I still give off offputting signals unconsciously. Micro expressions, vibe, etc. This is REALLY hard to work on.

Plus I get frustrated really easily, seeing how the world is unfair towards some people. How much abuse happens. And how victims are further hurts and avoided, because people don't like seeing people in "victim mode".

Your article about depression is good, but it's not trauma-informed and isn't a good fit for people in my position. I believe that depression is a symptom of deeper issues, in my case the trauma, and they need work in therpay - which I'm doing.

But it's okay to feel defeated, unmotivated, or like a victim. It's a part of the journey. And one should be able to get support on support places like this one (and yes, support should be #1 before giving advice, always).

 

[Teevster]

@Renegade ,

I am sorry to hear about your past. Sounds pretty rough.

But, there is hope for traumatized people. Therapy is good, but usually, going the practical route and do things to make life better actually helps too. Easier said than done, but this is what we do here - find solutions. Look, many here have their baggage - different to yours, different to mine (my traumas are mostly health related - I was for instance falsely diagnosed with HIV back in 2019 - false positive RNA test, which is rare - these tests do not give false positives unlike the standard 4th gen - my test was swapped with somebody else's - point is, we all deal with our own things)

We are not a support group though. Why? because most of us here are not specialized therapists. What we are however, are people who are interested in the field of pick up and seduction (note that some believe becoming good at this will solve their trauma, it won't, however dealing with the traumas will help you become better with women, that's for sure). I am not going to say that you should leave pick up and seduction aside to focus on your trauma, but make sure dealing with your issues come first.


We can only help with pick up and seduction, and the best way to do it is through tough love. That's how it has always been on the forums. Oh man, trust me, when I first joined, I received so much shit. This was in 2007. I though, damn this place is "toxic". This was back on mASF. It was not toxic, and in retrospect, it all made sense eventually. It is the best way to learn. Not the most pleasant way, but the most efficient. And that's what matters. If you can't take our well intended "shit", how are you to take women's? also pick up and seduction requires a very frustrating learning process. You need to get hardened to succeed.

Now back to your traumas - my suggestions are by no means meant as a replacement for your therapy (it is not) but we do have some threads on how to better your state. One that you may look into is this one. We swear by TRE - trauma releasing excercices. Certain special troops employ it for their warriors who were sendt to afghanistan. If it works on them, it likely works on you. In your case, I would consider doing this with a trained practioner, considering you are dealing with pretty serious stuff. You are also welcome to discuss these things (TRE, not pick up and seduction lol) with your therapist. Meditation could also be something worth considering. All these in ADDITION to therapy with certified expert, not as a replacement.

Best,
Teevster

Edit: Forgot to mention the obvious - health diet, working out, and sleep... sound simple enough but often overlooked.
Edit 2: I need to re-emphasize this: if you have suffered serious trauma, make sure you do the TRE sessions with a trained specialist (it usually does not cost that much). Reason being is the TRE can make you "relive" the traumas upon release - it makes them re-surface (hence why it works - it is like a weak form of electroshock therapy). You want to have an expert around you if this happens.

 

[Skills]

We can only help with pick up and seduction, and the best way to do it is through tough love. That's how it has always been on the forums. Oh man, trust me, when I first joined, I received so much shit. This was in 2007. I though, damn this place is "toxic". This was back on mASF. It was not toxic, and in retrospect, it all made sense eventually. It is the best way to learn. Not the most pleasant way, but the most efficient. And that's what matters. If you can't take our well intended "shit", how are you to take women's? also pick up and seduction requires a very frustrating learning process. You need to get hardened to succeed.

that is my line (bolded), you left out on the field.... i need the validation...


P.s. op on the positive this turn out to be a cool post, so i want to thank you, even brought out teevester from asylum.... I will use this post myself as reference, for guys with depression.... I will tell you something, i had a student just like you, he actually had a dark history and was the leader of a cult of guys that were misogonist(found this after), as soon as he starting getting success his depression disappear.... If he got on a date and went bad his depression re-appear.... and then got a hot girlfriend, no more depression.... this happened recently by the way... True story....

i sometimes wonder if guys lack of connection or sex with women is a form of depression and trauma..... With that being said, self happiness should not be women dependent... Hopefully you come out of this really good... I also think there is a member here @Regal Tiger that was good with depression and stuff.... Maybe he can jump in here...

 

[Teevster]

that is my line (bolded), you left out on the field.... i need the validation...

Validated you are. It is all yours.

Edit: I will be active on forums this week end. I can't go out due a problem with my foot (plantar fascitis). Hurts just too much.


Best,
Teevster

 

[Chase]

And one should be able to get support on support places like this one (and yes, support should be #1 before giving advice, always).

No, it should not be.

There are dedicated places for dedicated things.

It's why you don't go to the dentist but have to wait 10 hours in the waiting room because the dentist spends an hour with each patient just empathizing over the patient's tooth pain before starting any actual dental work.

It's why you don't go to a lawyer and spend 3 hours with the lawyer telling you "I feel your pain" then sliding you a bill for $1000 without ever even talking about legal remedies because "we'll do that in a future session."

Nobody here has the time to be your personal free therapist.

I get that you want that.

I get that you feel you NEED that.

But you need to stop barking up the wrong trees, bro.

You are doing it with girls, and you are doing it here.

I have to imagine you're doing it lots of other places too.

If you want support, write about your stuff on Reddit. There's all kinds of boards on there where people will do nothing but offer support, "OMG, that is so sad what happened to you, you have every right to feel exactly how you feel," blah blah blah blah blah.

This place is where you come to fuck girls.

Do you want to fuck girls or do you want support?

Fuck girls --> come to Skilled Seducer

Have your truth heard, seen, and be deeply and fully validated --> go to Reddit

Chase

 

[KJ Francis]

Alek: And then, at his place, he allows you to settle in. He offers you a nice drink, talks about intriguing topics, and eventually, you get closer to him. He touches you smoothly, yet always leaving you wanting more of his touch. His eye contact is strong, piercing. You have, at this point, escaped the world with him. Soon, your lips meet, and he carries you to bed, undresses you bit by bit, gets you naked. His tongue meets your ears, upper neck, lower neck, upper chest, chest, belly, hips, legs, then up to your lips again. He bites them (you can go on and on, but it’s good to break it and leave her wanting more here).

this is really cool... so beyond the goal of frame setting, you're future projecting, like within the gambit also describing a very real proposition without actually making a proposition... but what I hadn't internalized fully before (because I'm reading in the context of process) is that a girl would actually be visualizing this very intensely while you describe it. like actually imagining it happening in her mind's eye with detail of the setting, essentially fantasizing and associating it directly with you right in front of her... how could she not get horny...

Do you rinse or not? do you use glasswear, porcelain or do you use clay? Also what's the leaf to water ratio?

I am KJ "fake it til you make it"... I do not know the 8 types of tea making... or was it 7... definitely lost track imagining the aromas

Made me want to have a tea session with you!

Now that is an honour.

Gotta hand it to you @Renegade. You ruffled so many feathers here that even Teevster came back from MIA to straighten you out

so true... it is always these types of posts like @raiden I think it was that get a ton of replies in a couple days. @Renegade you do not seem like a newbie beginner and say you've been at this for a while... have you had much success fully closing interactions? like the goal here is to not to beat you down... it's to get you laid.

I know we seem harsh, but a lot of the concepts here are a little mind opening when you're new. so think of it like yelling at you when you are nodding off at the wheel before you go off the path too far. like imagine you were this guy coming in here arguing it is the best way to get his ex back. we would be like no no no no what the fuck are you thinking wake up dude. we all learn more by reinforcing concepts through analysis, but it would mostly be for his own benefit. https://www.scmp.com/news/china-ins...yuan-worth-imax-cinema-tickets-bid-impress-ex

We can put on a movie and chill with some orange juice.

why is this making me want tea now?

As that woman, would you date yourself?

this made me go to the gym

 

[KJ Francis]

I get the feeling that girls will like a guy despite him using these gambits, not thanks to using them.

I don't think it's meant to really make her like your personality more or necessarily feel more connected to you, etc. of course, it will increase your potential value to her... but I think it's more about strategic frame setting and presenting a reality that is potentially attainable to her, and therefore attractive. I think it's a lot better if she likes you overall, but a girl can not even like a guy and still be attracted to accessing his sexual value.

 

[KJ Francis]

Gotta hand it to you @Renegade. You ruffled so many feathers here that even Teevster came back from MIA to straighten you out

Can we do @Hector Papi Castillo next? Hector I think Buddhism is bullshit. I think we can totally get things to stay the same forever by clinging really hard to them, and then we will never suffer again.

 

[Renegade]

It is true that sometimes women connect on toxic emotions. This is a known fact. However, I still have not entirely figured how this works in practice. The reason is more that I do no not want to figure this out, since I believe one should stay away from such approach and more importantly, stay away from women who gets attracted to men who make them relieve trauma or dark emotions. She is likely to be a lot of trouble. But this is just a mere personal opinion.

Thank you for another great reply. I can see you're an intelligent guy and I kinda feel bad about saying that your techniques don't work on smart girls. However I still found some things on your approach:

I actually think it's great to connect on "toxic" emotions. Because first of all, no emotion is toxic. All emotions are valid and we need to see the girls and ourselves as whole.

Now we shouldn't do things that trigger the traumatic reactions in girls, that's true. But IMO we definitely can connect on negative emotions, as that builds the highest levels of connection and comfort (if it's genuine of course).

The only thing I cannot make entirely sense of here is this:

In the OP you mentioned that it did not work - you received negative response. Here you at least hint at scenarios where it worked for you - i.e. that the pacing did its job. Could you please clarify? To me there seems to be a contradiction here and the things you said in your OP.

Well I'm not entirely sure how to measure whether the gambit worked or not. With some girls it sparked curiosity, but it always eventually went to discussion mode. But I think I still hit some spots in them, by talking about stuff that guys mostly don't understand. So it didn't create a sexual mood at all, but I guess it framed me as someone who knows this stuff. And I got that emotional reaction out of them. So it both worked and didn't work.

it is true that some women will want you to go deep on them and really elicit those negative emotions. Those cases do not make up the majority of women.

Actually I think it is the majority of women that want someone to validate their negative emotions. Some are just disconnected from this need, just like men are often disconnected from their emotions.

So, to put it better, these women might not consciously want to relieve negative emotions, but they definitely need it. And deep down they want that. Everyone wants to be validated as that hurt, inferior version of them.

The response you hint at, at least to me, does not seem to entail that you were dealing with a partcularily intelligent woman. Rather, it seem like you were dealing with a sceptic girl, usuall a sign of low compliance, or testy behavior (or both) - she is basically saying "I am not ready to play ball with you just yet". Or, it could be a test - "show me you are the deal with first". what ever the true cause is behind her response matters little. What mattersis how you deal with it and fortunately both cases require similar solution: frame control.

Very smart, this point! This was probably the case. Testy behavior. Thank you for noticing that, I will read up more on frame control and test it out.

That is the whole point - you are not trying to prove anything. The frame should not be one of you coming off as trying to prove anything. The whole point is to be covert about evetything, by coming off as someone who just want to discuss a fascinating subject and through that set the right frames and elicit the right emotions. The point is not trying prove a point.

Again, seems your overall framework is off. The problem you are facing does not seem unique to your usage of sex talk, but more in general. Game, whether direct or indirect, would not entail you trying to "prove" anything (at least not come off that way). That goes against the cardinal rules of pick up and seduction.

Well here we have a problem. Because what is the purpose of your gambits? Of the whole seduction process in general?

Well it's to prove that we are a great potential partner for the woman. That's why we learn seduction, it's why we work out, make money... our purpose is to procreate, after all.

When a guy sees your gambits, he goes "wow, this is a great way to show (=prove) the woman that I know he world!" or "this is a great way to show her I know how to make her feel good and excited!".

This was acually also the response of one girl I used a (butchered) version of your gambit on. I told her that women have it difficult because they keep meeting guys that don't know how to make her feel great via stimulating her both physically and mentally. And she said "Well don't guys have it harder when they have to learn how to do all of that?" Very true and very smart.

So it's in the whole framework of seduciton that we are trying to prove ourselves. It's why this whole site exists. You can justify it from any other perspective (like "no, we just want to be the best versions of ourselves! For us!"), but no. Women say this too when they put on makeup, and we know very well that the underlying reason is to prove themselves to us. With men it's the same.

I have now provided you with more than enough to answer any questions you had. It seems to me, and I could be wrong, that your intend here isNOT to try to fix the issue, but "rant" or "vent" about a style of pick up. . My job is not to convince you that this works. Again, If you do not like this style and it does not work for you, follow @Skills initial advice and focus on a different style of game. After all, I think this may be the most ideal solution when I think of it. You can always come back to sex talk later.

Best,
Teevster

Thank you and yeah, I know. I just think it's valuable to share my experience, be it via ranting, and we can always find something in that.

For me, that "talk less and let her invest more" approach has alway worked the best, but now that I've moved to more advanced levels (at least for me - seducing in places where there are strong professional boundaries), I had to switch to a more verbal game.

The problem is that these techniques still excite me a little too much and I know that deep down I'm compensating fo rmy low self worth with these techniques. "If I'll show her that I know her world, she will value me more!". I'm sure many guys have it like me, but yeah, I would like to see this differently. But for that I'd have to become a "complete" man, not dependent on women's approval. A long way to go, and who knows if it's even possible or smart.

 

[Renegade]

i had a student just like you, he actually had a dark history and was the leader of a cult of guys that were misogonist(found this after), as soon as he starting getting success his depression disappear.... If he got on a date and went bad his depression re-appear.... and then got a hot girlfriend, no more depression.... this happened recently by the way... True story....

i sometimes wonder if guys lack of connection or sex with women is a form of depression and trauma.....

Eh, that's what I was saying in my previous posts. Most guys who have trouble seducing girls, or talking to people in general, are like that due to having some sort of trauma. Even a distant mother or father is traumatic for a child, and it WILL have an effect on how they see themselves, and how they act in social situations.

But people here are still like "noo most guys here don't have traumas, their families were perfect!". I guess they were born with an anti-rizz potion or whatever.

That guy you're talking about is more proof that depression is just a symptom, a defense mechanism. What guys need is love and validation, and girls seem like a great source. Once a guy gets that (minus the problems of course), his overall mood brightens and many symptoms disappear.

And because girls aren't a stable source of validation, and it's unfair to put this burden on them, we must work on ourselves and get this validation elsewhere - therapy.

Not talking about everyone, but for most guys who found seduction forums, that would be the way. I wouldn't have wasted 10 years of chasing validation from women had I gone to therapy immediately. But again, I would reject that hard in the past. So maybe it's a process?

Anyway, many great dating coaches have been turning to this healthier way lately. A famous PUA in my country now sends his students mostly to therapy first. It's quite nice to see.

 

[POB]

But yeah, not being frustrated is of course my goal. But if you're familiar with trauma recovery/personality disorder healing, this can take years, and even get worse before it gets better. So right now I have to work with what I have. Right now I want to cherish being frustrated, because finally after years of being depressed and disconnected, I can finally FEEL something.

Oh, now it makes sense @Renegade !
Sorry to hear about your past traumas, some heavy shit you have to deal with.

As the other guys said, this is a place for tough love.
The shit you'll get here is basically a form of masculine love to prepare you for the worst...like "get out of your own head and go out there to fail more, so eventually you can figure things on your own and start to have sucess"
That said, what you'll get from women can be 20x worse than anything the guys say here.
Just take a look at some journals and reports and you will see what I mean.

I would like to know what your practical tip would be here, because I'm literally doing everything I can about my mental health. I know so much about trauma recovery by now that I'm basically training my therapists.

How about forgetting a bit about women, doing what you like and having fun?
There are so many things you can do to feel instantly better.
For example, after my last break-up I got heavy into dancing.
Now after 1,5 years, I'm practically an instructor in Bachata, with a huge group of new friends, and a vibrant dancing community that brings me parties and events every weekend.