Russia-Ukraine Thread

[trashKENNUT]

The reality is that Ukraine didn't really find a great ally on either side. That's why these kind of small border countries need to operate very skillfully and not let themselves be pushed around like pawns that both sides might be fine in sacrificing for their broader strategies.

You need a skillful and tact leader for that.

:/

Not every nation has that. Singapore has this problem with the United States and China, too.

 

[Rakkum]

Out of these two what do you think Ukraine is calculating for?

I don't think it's an either-or thing, both according to circumstances. And now the circumstances have obviously changed.

And did they make a good choice?

Time will tell. Circassians fought fiercely against the Russian Empire, so fiercely that the military loss was followed in genocide and mass exodus of the whole nation - the Circassian nation in the Caucasus does not exist anymore.

Baltic states and Poland used the opportunity of the Russian revolution and WWI to secure independence. For Latvia and Estonia, for the first time. That also meant two decades of no collectivization, no red terror, acculturation or ethnic marginalization. By the time Soviet Union collapsed, people in these countries, in contrast to Caucasus, Ukraine, Central Asia all had living grandparents who remembered the time before the Soviet Union -- the spirit of freedom had not been completely put out by the sovietization and russification. I guess this explains partially the different political culture, levels of corruption and faster integration to the West compared with those whose civil wars (or wars of independence, had the whites/nationalists won) in the aftermath of WW1 ended with Bolshevik victory.

Chechens rebelled against Soviets in 1940 - the whole nation was deported to Kazakh steppes en masse - genocide according the UN Genocide Convention.

Finns fought a successful defensive war against Soviet Union at the Winter War and saved their state and were able to keep themselves aligned with the Western system (with military, political and territorial concessions after the Continuation War).

So, in short... it depends on the circumstances. Obviously, it's important not to lose.

The problem for Ukraine as I understand it is that they made the choice to try to defy Russia [...]

The Orange Revolution and EuroMaidan were certainly a slap in the face for Russia. And dangerous to Putin. "If Ukrainians, our brothers, can do this, why can't we?" If history is of any guidance, then having Russia as a friendly neighbor without succumbing to it's expansionism is not something you'd want to count on.

Where does that leave them?

Between a rock and a hard place, unfortunately.

 

[POCCN9lHNH]

The problem for Ukraine as I understand it is that they made the choice

Ukraine, "making the choice", 1 month before """""elections"""""

 

[Egor]

You didn't argue at a high level yourself so maybe it's just projection on your part.

Don't snipe at me bro. I'm not posting cringe tasteless stills from a porno while Ukrainian girls are being raped and murdered by an invading army. How about some empathy. Whatever 'goading' the US did to inspire Putin, nothing can justify this war and this atrocity. Russian boys are being led to the slaughter like lame dogs. Their generals are being killed. Just wait till some dust settles the confirmed number of casualties comes out, it is going to be shocking.

 

[POCCN9lHNH]

nothing can justify this war and this atrocity

 

[MuST0BtA1NSkR1Lla]

I could care less about Ukraine and I could care less about Russia.

I boycotted sports for the last couple years due to the Black Lives Matter and Covid policies and right when they re opened I had to now start listening to the Ukraine national anthem.

I watched this video on YouTube and it essentially got the truth of the matter in my opinion.

I think it is important to make the distinction quickly that in regards to vaccines Canada wasn’t accepting the Chinese vaccine or the Russian Sputnik vaccine as legitimate. Which shows that there wasn’t much co operation with these governments.

The Russian stock market has collapsed, which is almost an ungodly scenario and was the worst possible outcome that could’ve been conceived. We will be feeling the tremors of this when Russian Steel stops.

I’m surprised there isn’t wide spread riots in Russia, they’ll be starving in a month flat.

 

[Chase]

We had some good discussion in this thread and covered some interesting perspectives. Many of the folks here have tried to keep the conversation higher level.

However, the thread has veered toward emotionalism and tribalism, and I doubt we'll be able to keep that off it simply by removing posts, given the level of propaganda all governments are churning out through their media organs these days and how heated and tribalistic most people have become.

War everywhere is always tragedy. We have sympathy for everyone who has suffered through this now-8-year war: the 13,000 deaths of the Eurodmaidan in 2014; the deaths, shelling, and destruction in the Donbass that prompted the latest invasion; and the deaths and destruction from the current invasion all throughout Eastern Ukraine. Likewise we have sympathy for the other parts of the world where even greater atrocities with far higher civilian death counts are actively occurring, such as in Yemen.

That noted, I am locking this thread, and we will not have further discussion of Ukraine-Russia on the forum.

If you see any other posts made anywhere else on the forum about Ukraine-Russia, please REPORT them, and we will move them to this thread and ask the forum member commenting on it to refrain.

It's a tragic situation; we hope Ukraine and Russia can speedily resolve their disagreements and that other parties involved urge both sides to be reasonable; but it will do this forum no good to discuss the subject any further.

If you feel the need to continue discussing Russia-Ukraine, please do so on one of the myriad other sites online where this is now Issue #1.

Cheers,
Chase