Seduction Isn't A Piggy Bank, Probability, or Menial Labor

[Will_V]

Awesome post.

The way I view social skills helping in seduction is through:

1) Curiosity about people. Being present and attentive to figure out what excites people and focusing on that and less on what doesn't. This is why game is impacted by momentum, exposure, and mood. You may know exactly what to do for each situation, but If you are not present in the moment and focused on the micro things which tell you what the situation is, you will often miss the mark. These micro expressions are slightly different for everyone, and if you are not in the mood or are out of practise, it's game over.

Good points. Something that isn't often talked about (and maybe it's different for different seducers) is that seduction has a lot to do with how she experiences herself through you. If she feels beautiful and happy and interesting and unique when she's around you, that's half of the seduction already complete. That's why deep diving works so well, and calibrated compliments and qualifiers are very effective.

That has very little to do with who you are, and a lot to do with your ability to communicate, reflect, and lead her attention and emotions. You are sort of like her guide through her own world.

Many women are yearning not to find some super attractive guy, but to feel super attracted to themselves, to be able to express parts of themselves they aren't sure the world wants them to express, to be able to see the beauty and enjoyment that's available in their own present existence. If you can lead her there, she will be ready to do things she'd never do with anyone else.

 

[orkie123]

Good points. Something that isn't often talked about (and maybe it's different for different seducers) is that seduction has a lot to do with how she experiences herself through you. If she feels beautiful and happy and interesting and unique when she's around you, that's half of the seduction already complete. That's why deep diving works so well, and calibrated compliments and qualifiers are very effective.

That has very little to do with who you are, and a lot to do with your ability to communicate, reflect, and lead her attention and emotions. You are sort of like her guide through her own world.

Many women are yearning not to find some super attractive guy, but to feel super attracted to themselves, to be able to express parts of themselves they aren't sure the world wants them to express, to be able to see the beauty and enjoyment that's available in their own present existence. If you can lead her there, she will be ready to do things she'd never do with anyone else.

You got the source of my comment haha. Literally 5 mins before I read your post, a girl sent me a voice note with a very thoughtful compliment on something I dont share with almost anyone.

She deep dived me in person, found out something that excites my world and then complimented me on it later on.

Normally I feel funny about being complimented, but " to be able to express parts of themselves they aren't sure the world wants them to express" seems to apply to guys too (or at least me!). The reason I fell in love with my ex was because she fell in love with those hidden traits so I think you are onto something.

She is someone who excels at social game and thus gets a lot of benefits from men without having to give much but the occasional attention.

Being able to bring those positive feelings consistently just makes you a person people want to be around with.

 

[Will_V]

Normally I feel funny about being complimented, but " to be able to express parts of themselves they aren't sure the world wants them to express" seems to apply to guys too (or at least me!). The reason I fell in love with my ex was because she fell in love with those hidden traits so I think you are onto something.

It absolutely works with guys or anyone you want to establish any type of relationship with. Being able to see one level deeper into someone's identity than what the world around them perceives, and reflecting it positively back to them, is one of the most powerful rewards you can offer in a social context.

All the best interviewers do this very well, they will subtly draw out or qualify something about their subject that the people around them usually don't notice, and with the resulting pleasure and rapport, the person being interviewed is that much more open with them.

 

[SlayerCJ82]

That's absolutely right, but every guy's capacity to maintain an imbalanced skill level leaning in the direction of women is different.

For some guys, regardless of the ups and downs of their lives, women have always been there in some positive capacity. Even if it's just their mum or sister giving them emotional support. For them, women are easily separable from everything else, and they know how to chill and have fun with them regardless of what else is going on. Or maybe these guys are just very optimistic and enthusiastic by nature, and it's part of their self-expression to present themselves in magnetic ways to other people, regardless of whether their lives are a mess.

For other guys, women have always been on the 'other side' of something, a goal in the far-flung future like being jacked or getting a million dollars. I think these guys tend to have grown up with very little in the way of female company, and quite logically, they look around at other guys interacting with the women they want, and hypothesize a lack or gap of some sort that they need to bridge first. Having grown up male-dominated, achievement oriented social environments, they have a hard time understanding why that wouldn't extend to a woman's criteria for a sexual relationship.

These guys, especially if their own view of themselves is critical, have a hard time understanding why women would want to have anything to do with them and they feel like they are a bad choice, and their interactions with women tend to coincide with flatlining of their self-esteem, which result in women pulling away, and game becomes a grinding battle of pushing their self esteem uphill and having it roll down again.

No man can change his worldview just because someone tells him so. It only changes over a long set of experiences and reinforcements that eventually rearrange his instincts and natural responses to the world around him.

If a guy tries to immediately change his reality and worldview by going out and daygaming, and otherwise keeping the rest of his life the same, it's probably not going to work well at all. He's going to get rejected a bunch of times, maybe a lot of times, and that's just going to reinforce his negative beliefs, batter his self esteem, and keep him in a position where he's unable to express himself emotionally or create any kind of impetus in the seduction.

What he needs to do is go and be social, find out the reality of what experiences people want to share with others, see it and experience it in many different ways.

For me, as a teenager way back when with social anxiety and no social life, the real turning point was when I applied for a university exchange program to Brazil, and once there I just hung around with everybody who would let me hang around with them (since I had no friends or family there), whatever everyone was doing I'd just follow along and try to absorb some information - it helped that Brazilian people in general are very easy to get along with and put up with this quiet gringo in the background. I completely left my old life, my routines and my habits, behind.

Eventually I got invited to a week long house party during Carnaval, where we partied all night and lay around all day. And I saw this skinny, effeminate dude with nose rings smash through half of the girls there (including the ones I was trying to impress). At that point I was like "OK clearly I don't know what women want", I kept going to every social event I could, every party I heard of, if there was nothing going on I'd find some salsa club and dance there all night. I learned how to meet new people fast and how to make them feel comfortable and good around me quickly, and eventually got laid for the first time.

I learned a whole lot of lessons very fast on that trip. If I hadn't done all that socializing and upended my life and routines, and instead gone and daygamed solo right away without changing anything else, I doubt I would have gotten very far at all.

I dunno man . Still disagree.

if a guy has issues with women ‘being on the other side ‘ etc and is hanging to get laid with one of them, then I’d still advise him to do as I’ve recommended. Focus only on socialising with women in a closed environment like a busy coffee shop and just do that with another dude wingman at said coffee shop.

if he believes there is a “gap” to be bridged go and read aaron sleazys minimal game and what he says in chapter 1 ( if I recall)
he’ll need to work then through his social conditioning slowly a step at a time day by day.

if a guy has extreme social anxiety that’s a bit of another story yes . He needs to socialise in baby steps yes. That’s like social -phobia. But for mild social anxiety I’d still recommend the coffee shop approach above . Just make small talk as step 0 then mystery method after this step by step,

i would definitely NOT recommend “street pickup / street Game “ to anyone learning, that’s been he biggest mis-step of many of the old PUA ‘companies’. Mass cold approaching on the street.

the odds doing street game are 10% .. and that’s for someone like Paul Janka who is a CHAD level looking guy! He tracked it on a spreadsheet back in the day.

street game is for the advanced tbh,
Effort to reward level it doesn’t make make much sense for newbie or mid experienced guys. Gotta be a real smooth salesman to do street game tbh.

 

[Atlas IV]

street game is for the advanced tbh,
Effort to reward level it doesn’t make make much sense for newbie or mid experienced guys. Gotta be a real smooth salesman to do street game tbh.

I've always done street game. It's where I made the greatest growth, and I'd say the source of 80% of my lifetime cold approach lays.

Wouldn't want to imagine where I'd be right now or the great experiences I'd have missed out on if I'd chickened out from street game because it's "only for the advanced".

 

[Will_V]

Focus only on socialising with women in a closed environment like a busy coffee shop and just do that with another dude wingman at said coffee shop.

I absolutely disagree, walking around and trying to meet loads of new women inside a coffee shop is a recipe for getting kicked out. When you start practising cold approach, you need a place where you have room to make mistakes and deal with rejections with a minimum of pressure and blowback.

In public thoroughfares, it's easy for her to leave if she's not interested, since she's already walking, but in the coffee shop she's isn't going to want to have to figure out how to tell you 'no', she'll probably just call the staff on you and you'll not be setting foot in there again.

i would definitely NOT recommend “street pickup / street Game “ to anyone learning, that’s been he biggest mis-step of many of the old PUA ‘companies’. Mass cold approaching on the street.

I would recommend street game, with the caveat that if a guy is having a lot of trouble with rejections, and his social life is very poor, he's going to benefit a lot more from finding ways to expand his social interactions in general rather than just doing cold approach.

It's very difficult to go from 'inhibited loner' to 'smooth social animal/seducer' via sessions of solo cold approach. You'd need a very high pain threshold and great self awareness for that. It's much easier when you're already a social animal, and when you go out you're just adding a touch of sexual intent and framing to what you already know how to do well.

 

[SlayerCJ82]

I've always done street game. It's where I made the greatest growth, and I'd say the source of 80% of my lifetime cold approach lays.

Wouldn't want to imagine where I'd be right now or the great experiences I'd have missed out on if I'd chickened out from street game because it's "only for the advanced".

Ok sure.
But the proof is in how many cold approaches did you do vs how many lays.

getting good results is for the advanced dude. Otherwise a guy runs the big risk of hassling and creeping out chicks. Which has resulted in arrests and jail time in some instances. A guy has Gotta know what he’s doing firstly.

Paul Janka the NYC playboy Chad type seducer guy tracked his progress back in the day. It was 10% .. 1 in 10 numbers he got resulted in a lay. And he was very very good at it. That’s all I’m saying.

there’s stories from the old days of community guys getting 1 lay from 1,000 approaches.

this is not good and a massive waste of time.

what are/were u batting % wise approaches vs lays.

 

[SlayerCJ82]

I absolutely disagree, walking around and trying to meet loads of new women inside a coffee shop is a recipe for getting kicked out. When you start practising cold approach, you need a place where you have room to make mistakes and deal with rejections with a minimum of pressure and blowback.

In public thoroughfares, it's easy for her to leave if she's not interested, since she's already walking, but in the coffee shop she's isn't going to want to have to figure out how to tell you 'no', she'll probably just call the staff on you and you'll not be setting foot in there again.



I would recommend street game, with the caveat that if a guy is having a lot of trouble with rejections, and his social life is very poor, he's going to benefit a lot more from finding ways to expand his social interactions in general rather than just doing cold approach.

It's very difficult to go from 'inhibited loner' to 'smooth social animal/seducer' via sessions of solo cold approach. You'd need a very high pain threshold and great self awareness for that. It's much easier when you're already a social animal, and when you go out you're just adding a touch of sexual intent and framing to what you already know how to do well.

Well I guess I didn’t realise the goalposts were “ inhibited loner”

so the recommendation is for an inhibited loner newbie to practice cold approach with random chicks on the street ( a very hard game) vs run low level game in a coffee shop he can frequents every day and become a known person to the staff as ‘a regular ‘…?

so he runs the risk of getting a) told off by staff or b) getting more severely told off or c) getting banned from cafe after a period of time … ( what like a week or two?) that’s the risk really. So what? Move to another busy Starbucks dude . Do u think the staff are idle enough to be watching 1 or 2 guys in a massive busy cafe??

small risk and inconsequential.

vs a very bad reaction on the street ,

for example - getting arrested.
It’s happened and it’s on record if u want to google. And a newbie doesn’t have a clue how creepy he may be cold approaching,

It’s basically a inhibited loner approaching a chick from her POV. It’s basically a Kamikazi mission for that guy. ?

 

[WierdDough]

Pretty much. Yes you want her imagination to run ahead, but the way I see it, she is experiencing the product from the moment you make the approach. Everything you do with her is an abstract sexual experience.

When you think about the act of sex, there are some aspects like:

- Taking initiative and leading/guiding her
- Talking to her in an warm, authoritative way
- Having a firm and consistent rhythm to your stimulation of her, and not being nervous.
- Showing attentiveness to what she's feeling, and adjusting to it
- Stimulating her whole body in different ways and not getting laser focused on one thing
- Teasing her in advance of something you're about to do with her
- Increasing the intensity of stimulation over time

All these things are as much a part of sex as they are a part of how you talk to her, how you kiss her, how you touch her, how you move her, etc. Each phase of the seduction has its own experience of all these aspects. For example:

- When you move her, you are taking initiative and leading/guiding her, the same way you'd tell her to get in this or that position during sex.
- When you tease her or put pressure on her to qualify to you, you are assuming a warm, authoritative frame, the same way you'd talk to her during foreplay or sex.
- When you speak to her with a calm, deep, steady voice, you are stimulating her in a rhythmic way, the same way you'd use your cock.
- When she signals that she's uncomfortable or confused and you adjust what you're saying/doing without backing off completely, you're showing attentiveness, the same way you'd adjust what you were doing during sex if she wasn't comfortable.
- When you're talking to her and you touch her arm, then a bit later her leg, then you lean in and put your hand on the small of her back and simultaneously breathe on her neck, you're stimulating her in a variety of ways, the same way you'd do during foreplay or sex.
- When you hold off the kiss when she clearly wants it, it's the same as when you tease her with your cock before putting it in.
- As you escalate your touch and sexual framing smoothly during the date, you're increasing the intensity of stimulation, the same way you'd do it during foreplay/sex.

So by the time a woman is on your bed and it's on, she knows it's going to be good, because of all the mini-experiences you've already given her. And of course it's part of why she's there to begin with.

You have many instruments of effect you can use to arouse her and give her mini-sexual experiences from the get-go - your voice, words, and eye contact when you first say hello, your hands as you touch, caress, and guide her, your lips as you kiss her, your cock when you take her. They are on different levels of intensity, but they all act upon her mind and body to give her pleasure, open her up, and prepare her for the next level of stimulation.

Main post aside, which was a really nice post, this reply you gave is plainly awesome. Having the end in mind, and calibrating your actions thereafter is a truly powerful concept. You should write a full post on this.

 

[Will_V]

so the recommendation is for an inhibited loner newbie to practice cold approach with random chicks on the street ( a very hard game)

If he can handle it and learn from it, sure. But the point of my post is that a guy who is socially inept should socialize more in general - go to meetups, do classes and workshops, group exercise, etc, and get the fundamentals of socializing down in a much lower pressure environment. It's going to be a lot easier for him to make progress on his social skills there compared to just getting blown out five times a day.

 

[Will_V]

Main post aside, which was a really nice post, this reply you gave is plainly awesome. Having the end in mind, and calibrating your actions thereafter is a truly powerful concept. You should write a full post on this.

Glad you like it!

It also sets up your own arousal when you think of everything you're doing throughout the interaction as an act with a sexual dimension. For example, I think of eye contact as the first act of penetration, and the first time I really hold it steady, and she tries to hold it and fails and shyly looks down, I often get really aroused, and I know she feels it on some level.

It's a lot easier to sexualize things when you're experiencing it that way yourself and it's transferring to her without the need for words.

 

[SlayerCJ82]

If he can handle it and learn from it, sure. But the point of my post is that a guy who is socially inept should socialize more in general - go to meetups, do classes and workshops, group exercise, etc, and get the fundamentals of socializing down in a much lower pressure environment. It's going to be a lot easier for him to make progress on his social skills there compared to just getting blown out five times a day.

So, if a highly socially-anxious and highly-inhibited’ loner ‘ can ‘handle’ trying to interact with multiple random strange women on the street and getting rejected 9 times out of 10 .. and also run the risk of being arrested by doing so - you think he should for sure go ahead with it? As long as he is ‘ learning’ something… ok then

Here’s a question - how is this inhibited loner with minimal social skills going to measure* what he has ‘learned’ ?

cos for sure it won’t be number of Lays as a measure. Cos he won’t get any.

Will he learn the ‘confidence’ to keep at it and do 1,000 approaches, get 999 rejections and 1 lay at the end is it?

 

[SlayerCJ82]

If he can handle it and learn from it, sure. But the point of my post is that a guy who is socially inept should socialize more in general - go to meetups, do classes and workshops, group exercise, etc, and get the fundamentals of socializing down in a much lower pressure environment. It's going to be a lot easier for him to make progress on his social skills there compared to just getting blown out five times a day.

Yes and my point is he can do ALL of the above but hanging out in one place - a busy Starbucks. Just talk chit chat to everyone. And progressively in baby steps learn how to talk to chicks also?

meetups , classes, workshops, group stuff sure for general socialising but this does not build ‘seduction skills’ one iota (!) really.

chit chat skills sure. General conversation skills yep.

seduction skills are all about expressing the guys sexuality as a man. He is gonna be ‘gaming’ chicks for Sex as the endgame. That’s his agenda.
The above is social circle game stuff. Not pickup or seduction. The above way will take 100x longer to learn anything really relevant to pickup/seduction.

a guy can be a sexy loner and still pull chicks dude.
Every guy needs to learn project to project ‘sexy’ as a priority and “risk creepy/sleazy” as 60YOC called it.

A guy should definitely not practice on the street in the daytime with randoms having weird awkward stunted conversations and interactions before he’s had a few lays from other situations.

Practice it in Bars and Clubs *where it is expected * and normal male behaviour for much better results.

street game is at best 10% success rate of approaches to lays. And that’s from Paul Janka who is a *Chad-looking* and very experienced old-school NYC player.

the guy you are describing has about a 0.5% chance of success … if not less.

but you are saying sure this guy should do it for “learning experience”.

Im saying .. no definitely not, unless he just wants for some bizarre reason to learn to love being rejected and feel even worse about himself than he already does.
It’s a recipe for failure.

 

[SlayerCJ82]

Will_V

this bit of your OP

“ Re : seduction being Elite Social Skills”


“Because that’s what seduction is, it’s 80% social skills with a thin layer of seduction on top. Game isn’t some kind of shortcut that bypasses social skills, it issocial skills. Meeting someone sans context without creating friction, building rapport, being interesting and fun, making the other person feel interesting and fun, pacing and leading the interaction, that’s all social skills. If you can do it with random girls, you can do it with anyone. And if you can’t do it with anyone, you won’t be able to do it with random girls”

Can you tell me what pickup stuff you have studied or your influences for learning these ideas expressed above? Just wondering to understand this in more context of PUA.

 

[Atlas IV]

I vote for a new forum rule: any account that's less than a week old that comes in and picks a fight with a Tribal Elder should be instabanned.

@SlayerCJ82 is the latest example, and there were a couple last month. These trolls, acting like they know better when they obviously haven't read a single article from GirlsChase, are just wasting everyone's time.

 

[SlayerCJ82]

H

I vote for a new forum rule: any account that's less than a week old that comes in and picks a fight with a Tribal Elder should be instabanned.

@SlayerCJ82 is the latest example, and there were a couple last month. These trolls, acting like they know better when they obviously haven't read a single article from GirlsChase, are just wasting everyone's time.

Hey hey hey
Go easy.
I’m an older dude with heaps of experience ( how do I prove this? I cannot)
I’m not looking for a ban. Just to talk pickup.
I’ve probably read / watched every pickup course under the sun. I have Chases book just skimmed it / started it years ago.

So if I don’t 100% agree with it all… does that mean I can’t post an opinion?

And it’s not ‘picking a fight ‘.. I’m just debating dude . Pros and Cons. Efficienways of learning Vs long ways of learning this stuff.

so I can’t have an opinion if I don’t reach tribal leader status is that it?

And Chases way = the only way also?

I’m only here to talk pickup based on what’s out there in the community, there are many methods and many ways to skin a cat.

ill stick to Online Game then . That’s what I came to get tips for . The only tips so far I’ve gotten is “ give up” in that realm

 

[SlayerCJ82]

I’m not trolling or here to troll.
Just opinions from experience that may actually help newbies save time.
You wanna save time and learn this stuff quicker or not?
I don’t agree with everything Chase says

does that mean no participation for me or what?

 

[SlayerCJ82]

And I wanna find some courses if anyone still here has them. this RickH guy from early DD days .. just sayin

 

[SlayerCJ82]

I mean how would I even know who Rick_H is if my story is not true. Or know he’s a disciple of Ross Jeffries from a course of his I watched. Or hung around with Brent smith from a Video I watched on Brent’s old channel.
Or that Brent says stuff like “ indifference is the difference that makes the difference”
And Rick say stuff like “ flip the script “ on a woman.
im pre-Chase days dude. I’m old.

 

[Will_V]

@SlayerCJ82 please don't spam the thread with your argumentative or random posts. Take the time to collect your thoughts, ask yourself if you really have any point that's worth making, and if so, make it concisely. This isn't the chat. I've noticed you spamming other threads as well with your stream of consciousness, or whatever it is, and some guys have already reported it to the mods because they are finding it very annoying.

If you haven't already, read this primer.

Will he learn the ‘confidence’ to keep at it and do 1,000 approaches, get 999 rejections and 1 lay at the end is it?

It's not for me to tell a guy what to do or not to do. Everyone is a free man. Some guys can pick it up fast, others are very slow.

My point is that if a guy is struggling hard because of lack of social skills, he might benefit from working on those skills in a variety of social contexts, where there's a lot less pressure and a lot more feedback.

Yes and my point is he can do ALL of the above but hanging out in one place - a busy Starbucks. Just talk chit chat to everyone. And progressively in baby steps learn how to talk to chicks also?

No, most people are not hanging around at Starbucks ready to meet someone, they are usually socializing with friends. Walking around from table to table trying to practise social skills is just random and uncalibrated, and will garner attention from the staff and everyone else quickly.

Sure you can approach there subtly from time to time, but hanging out there with your wings and approaching lots of strangers, regardless of whether you're seducing or just wanting to practice social skills, is just not a good idea for what I think are obvious reasons.

meetups , classes, workshops, group stuff sure for general socialising but this does not build ‘seduction skills’ one iota (!) really.

What it does build is the skills you need to get through the first minute or so of an approach, which is usually the hardest. At the beginning of an approach, you shouldn't be trying to sexualize it very much, you're usually just giving a compliment, introducing yourself, and smoothly establishing rapport and a basic social frame.

The above is social circle game stuff. Not pickup or seduction. The above way will take 100x longer to learn anything really relevant to pickup/seduction.

Nope, seduction (in daygame especially) is mostly social skills and social frame, especially right at the beginning which is where guys struggle to get a foothold.

If you start showing sexual interest immediately, typically (because she doesn't know you) she's going to get defensive and closed off fast.

a guy can be a sexy loner and still pull chicks dude.
Every guy needs to learn project to project ‘sexy’ as a priority and “risk creepy/sleazy” as 60YOC called it.

There's a calibrated way to show interest in daygame, and it's not the same as what you can pull off in night game.

Also, here you're saying guys should risk being creepy/sleazy, and then saying that they should go to coffee shops because if they do street game they might be arrested? I'm not sure you've thought this one out.

Will_V

this bit of your OP

“ Re : seduction being Elite Social Skills”


“Because that’s what seduction is, it’s 80% social skills with a thin layer of seduction on top. Game isn’t some kind of shortcut that bypasses social skills, it issocial skills. Meeting someone sans context without creating friction, building rapport, being interesting and fun, making the other person feel interesting and fun, pacing and leading the interaction, that’s all social skills. If you can do it with random girls, you can do it with anyone. And if you can’t do it with anyone, you won’t be able to do it with random girls”

Can you tell me what pickup stuff you have studied or your influences for learning these ideas expressed above? Just wondering to understand this in more context of PUA.

I don't study a lot of pickup, but I've picked up plenty of principles, mainly from Girls Chase and some good stuff particularly from Natural Lifestyles as well, and gotten plenty of personal experience in daygame, which I do exclusively.

What I said there is coming from my experience. If you don't believe me, here are some of the social skills you need to do daygame:

- Dressing well, having great posture and relaxed body language
- Keeping your nerves under control meeting a stranger
- Having a deep, well-projected tone of voice
- Knowing how to walk up and introduce yourself to someone in a smooth, comfortable, friendly way
- Knowing how to lead a conversation to quickly get through small talk and onto more emotionally impactful topics
- Knowing how to balance listening and talking, and maintain engagement when you aren't talking
- Knowing how to listen for important cues in a conversation, such as when someone briefly mentions a topic that means a lot to them
- Knowing how to give compliments and receive them
- Knowing how to steer the conversation away from bad topics
- Knowing how to use incidental touch during a conversation
- Knowing how to pick up the conversation again when a topic is exhausted
- Knowing how to increase or release tension or pressure with your body language
- Knowing how to break rapport instead of arguing with her
- Knowing how to smoothly round off a conversation while leaving someone wanting more.

And so on. That's a lot of stuff you can learn to a good extent in nonsexual social interactions.

If you can learn that from daygame, so much the better. But if a guy is struggling to get interactions off the ground and just getting his ego beat down, maybe he can try expanding his social environments and variety of social interactions as well.

Or just go up to her with the intention of having a pleasant conversation before anything else.