Seduction Isn't A Piggy Bank, Probability, or Menial Labor

[SlayerCJ82]

Ok

@SlayerCJ82 please don't spam the thread with your argumentative or random posts. Take the time to collect your thoughts, ask yourself if you really have any point that's worth making, and if so, make it concisely. This isn't the chat. I've noticed you spamming other threads as well with your stream of consciousness, or whatever it is, and some guys have already reported it to the mods because they are finding it very annoying.

If you haven't already, read this primer.



It's not for me to tell a guy what to do or not to do. Everyone is a free man. Some guys can pick it up fast, others are very slow.

My point is that if a guy is struggling hard because of lack of social skills, he might benefit from working on those skills in a variety of social contexts, where there's a lot less pressure and a lot more feedback.



No, most people are not hanging around at Starbucks ready to meet someone, they are usually socializing with friends. Walking around from table to table trying to practise social skills is just random and uncalibrated, and will garner attention from the staff and everyone else quickly.

Sure you can approach there subtly from time to time, but hanging out there with your wings and approaching lots of strangers, regardless of whether you're seducing or just wanting to practice social skills, is just not a good idea for what I think are obvious reasons.



What it does build is the skills you need to get through the first minute or so of an approach, which is usually the hardest. At the beginning of an approach, you shouldn't be trying to sexualize it very much, you're usually just giving a compliment, introducing yourself, and smoothly establishing rapport and a basic social frame.



Nope, seduction (in daygame especially) is mostly social skills and social frame, especially right at the beginning which is where guys struggle to get a foothold.

If you start showing sexual interest immediately, typically (because she doesn't know you) she's going to get defensive and closed off fast.



There's a calibrated way to show interest in daygame, and it's not the same as what you can pull off in night game.

Also, here you're saying guys should risk being creepy/sleazy, and then saying that they should go to coffee shops because if they do street game they might be arrested? I'm not sure you've thought this one out.



I don't study a lot of pickup, but I've picked up plenty of principles, mainly from Girls Chase and some good stuff particularly from Natural Lifestyles as well, and gotten plenty of personal experience in daygame, which I do exclusively.

What I said there is coming from my experience. If you don't believe me, here are some of the social skills you need to do daygame:

- Dressing well, having great posture and relaxed body language
- Keeping your nerves under control meeting a stranger
- Having a deep, well-projected tone of voice
- Knowing how to walk up and introduce yourself to someone in a smooth, comfortable, friendly way
- Knowing how to lead a conversation to quickly get through small talk and onto more emotionally impactful topics
- Knowing how to balance listening and talking, and maintain engagement when you aren't talking
- Knowing how to listen for important cues in a conversation, such as when someone briefly mentions a topic that means a lot to them
- Knowing how to give compliments and receive them
- Knowing how to steer the conversation away from bad topics
- Knowing how to use incidental touch during a conversation
- Knowing how to pick up the conversation again when a topic is exhausted
- Knowing how to increase or release tension or pressure with your body language
- Knowing how to break rapport instead of arguing with her
- Knowing how to smoothly round off a conversation while leaving someone wanting more.

And so on. That's a lot of stuff you can learn to a good extent in nonsexual social interactions.

ok I’ve gotten that feedback on other forums . I do struggle to be concise as it’s an area I have much interest in.

ill make it concise then.
Quite a few of the older PUAs used to break it down like this below, aI’ll cite Jon Sinn as I defs remember him saying it. Plus noteable others (who probably copied it from him anyway)

Quote;

“there are 2 ways to be successful with women
1) be a great guy
2) be a great manipulator

End Quote.

this is ( to me ) absolutely dead-set correct and inarguable tbh.

you are advocating for 1)
I am advocating for 2)

simple as that. That’s really the debate and counter point I am making.

the difference in which road to take is a matter of ethics. Both work very well.
One delivers results faster than the other.
Kaboom!

 

[Will_V]

Ok

ok I’ve gotten that feedback on other forums . I do struggle to be concise as it’s an area I have much interest in.

ill make it concise then.
Quite a few of the older PUAs used to break it down like this below, aI’ll cite Jon Sinn as I defs remember him saying it. Plus noteable others (who probably copied it from him anyway)

Quote;

“there are 2 ways to be successful with women
1) be a great guy
2) be a great manipulator

End Quote.

this is ( to me ) absolutely dead-set correct and inarguable tbh.

you are advocating for 1)
I am advocating for 2)

simple as that. That’s really the debate and counter point I am making.

the difference in which road to take is a matter of ethics. Both work very well.
One delivers results faster than the other.
Kaboom!

Your framing of my position is completely off, and I'm not going to correct it for you.

 

[ChrisXKiss]

A guy should definitely not practice on the street in the daytime with randoms having weird awkward stunted conversations and interactions before he’s had a few lays from other situations.

Practice it in Bars and Clubs *where it is expected * and normal male behaviour for much better results.

Just a comment about this. I have not personally seen how it is easier to go practice it in bars and clubs.

People usually say it is more acceptable, but in my experience the harshest rejections, biggest shutdowns and immediate ignoring I have gotten has been in night venues.

Girls just instantly feel you want sex from them, and are like no, nope, not with me buddy. Of course you can have some nice interactions as well, but especially because you are all in the same enclosed place for a while you not only have limited options, but also risk negative preselection that will destroy any chances you may have had in this environment. Not to mention that you can also have the security called on you here, quite more easily than in the street.

At least in my experience, I have felt way more free and full of opportunities in daygame. Every interaction is new, no preselection to affect your results in any way, and generally women have lower walls and if you come in a calibrated way, they will at least talk.

 

[SlayerCJ82]

Your framing of my position is completely off, and I'm not going to correct it for you.

Ok Will.

do you want me to pick your points apart point by point? Or just keep my mouth shut?

the game you are running is social skills based game. You mentioned a guy should not be sexual off the bat.

Im of another method to your basically.
I’m always sexual straight off the bat from second 0.

I ‘risk creepy’ and sleazy all day long.
Because I am looking for sex primarily. The rest to me is fluff talk. A few jokes but all is sexual.

you seem to be running through a series of steps which are very similar to Mystery Method afaiks. Similar content. Similar pacing.

I’d recommend MM for sure. Decent method. MM is effective in Bars and Clubs also he takes all the other factors into account in those environs.

but there are other methods and other ways Will. There’s other guys on the boards here who run other styles of game. There’s other guys in the community also. Many different ways to skin the cats.

I’m just from another camp.

it depends on what a guy wants. To spend time with them and enjoy their company, go on long dates etc sure go with that.

I’m going for “ bang them as quickly as possible” - i can skip all of the phases - cos it’s all signalling to me in the first few seconds and minutes. If it’s “ on” it’s just leading then , overcoming objections tbh and logistics .

there is a basis which is missing from the above.
It’s the basis 101 of sexual attraction.

a woman knows in about 1-3 seconds (maybe less - could be 0.5 of a second) when she looks at a guy wether it’s a YES/NO/MAYBE to bang him,

women get a physiological reaction it’s an evolutionary ‘hardwire’. All pickup theory should flow from this as it’s basis IMO.

So this style of game is treating ALL WOMEN as a MAYBE and running the full game on them when it may be actually unnecessary to do some. It’s reading signals and cues for this Y/N/M from a chick is the problem and the hard bit to learn and which takes the time and experience to get an intuition for.

but there are other ways to learn it than cold approach or social circle . A guy can be worrying about the wrong things ie “what to say “….

I could not condense this .
I’ll rest my thumbs now for a while and let that percolate… thanks

 

[FAB DRONES]

Where I’m from there are older words to describe a seducer which are still relevant and not used today post PUA/ Pickup/Game which may be helpful in getting a feel for it for new guys.

the main one imo is “ Charmer”

“you’re a charmer / you’re such a charmer “
Is one I used to hear girls use a lot to me . If you hear that you are definitely on the right track ( I’m an old Bull now btw)

this word and idea may be useful.

definition


Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more


noun

1. a person with an attractive and engaging personality, typically one who uses this to impress or manipulateothers

note the word “ manipulate”

The game / pickup/seduction is really in its longer form “ The Game ( Of manipulation) that’s what’s happening. it seems a bit lost in translation these days /unclear now rhere have been so many iterations of “Game” used and sold

also note the definition of “Suave”
Always head to the dictionary for these words to understand their true older meaning,

Dictionary

Suave
*charming, polite

adjective. Someone who is suave is charming, polite, and elegant, *but may be insincere*. He is a suave, cool and cultured man. Synonyms: smooth, charming, urbane, debonair More Synonyms of suave.

Note - may be insincere

this is the most important - when u are ‘gaming’ (charming) a chick be * obviously* insincere
Give her a wink and a cheeky smile when u deliver whatever ur saying. You are telling her “ I know this is bullshit “ - if she is game for it she will smile back and signal to you “ yes I understand this , but keep going as I am enjoying it “

it’s all indirect and subtext stuff.
All game/ pickup/ seduction should really be done indirectly at the subtext level .
The “spell” of the Charmer is never broken if it’s never spoken of or pointed out directly. Especially in day gaming.

night gaming it can be stated but in funny ways

what If she goes, "you're so... i don't know... charismatic?" same thing?
I guess it means

exercising a compelling charm which inspires devotion in others.

I don't really have game, so that would be something else I was doing. I thought it was my george cloony expressions.

 

[FAB DRONES]

i've gotten to the point where friends are tiresome because I'm so deprived of pussy that it's just embarrassing and all I want to talk about anyway is how to get girls. I'm not in a stage of my life where I am seeking out friends. Paradoxically, they try to befriend me pretty hard these days, and I'm just like, no... There's nothing left to discuss. I need to get girls because I know I can do it and friends- well, I know myself enough to know i would use them as a crutch. They don't help. Better to come here and have highly techincal ddiscussions. I've poor social skills when I'm depressed, and I'm depressed because I'm not getting pussy, and the only thing getting me out of bed is pussy, and I know I can get it, so, I;m operating othe fucking theory that if I just grind it out for a bit I'll get pussy because all I need is that discipline to do the homework. I'm told I'm a hot guy so I shouldn't even need social skills. I need to stop freaking out, I need to chill out, say some bullshit to girls and thats it. When I saw the video of chase saying, you, yes you the PUA customer, yes you can even beat a hot guy if he hasn't been doing his homework. So I just gotta come do my homework, it's so fucking obvious. And I've always been that kid that doesn't do his homework. And that doesn't practice.

 

[FAB DRONES]

Note the asterisks * * on the important points below re morals, inadvisable/foolhardy and unwary targets.

Dictionary


seducer
noun

1. a person who entices someone into sexual activity.
   "a serial seducer *with no moral compass*
   • a person who entices someone to *do or believe something inadvisable or foolhardy.*
     noun: seducer; plural noun: seducers
     *"seducers of the unwary*
     

Ah yes, I don't like this, always made me uncomfortable... Aren't we supposed to frame this in a positive light?

 

[FAB DRONES]

Just a comment about this. I have not personally seen how it is easier to go practice it in bars and clubs.

People usually say it is more acceptable, but in my experience the harshest rejections, biggest shutdowns and immediate ignoring I have gotten has been in night venues.

Girls just instantly feel you want sex from them, and are like no, nope, not with me buddy. Of course you can have some nice interactions as well, but especially because you are all in the same enclosed place for a while you not only have limited options, but also risk negative preselection that will destroy any chances you may have had in this environment. Not to mention that you can also have the security called on you here, quite more easily than in the street.

At least in my experience, I have felt way more free and full of opportunities in daygame. Every interaction is new, no preselection to affect your results in any way, and generally women have lower walls and if you come in a calibrated way, they will at least talk.

Oh yeah, I just had a whole conversation with some milf today, and just felt like my mind was blown how she made it look good even tho I clearly uncalibratedly went for her when I want young women. And she was into itbut just like interacting with an older lif by accdent i learned a lot, i actually regret it, it wass embarrasing, but, in night game she wouldn't t alk to me. IDK what im trying to say

 

[Brassfaced_Jim]

i've gotten to the point where friends are tiresome because I'm so deprived of pussy that it's just embarrassing and all I want to talk about anyway is how to get girls. I'm not in a stage of my life where I am seeking out friends. Paradoxically, they try to befriend me pretty hard these days, and I'm just like, no... There's nothing left to discuss. I need to get girls because I know I can do it and friends- well, I know myself enough to know i would use them as a crutch. They don't help. Better to come here and have highly techincal ddiscussions. I've poor social skills when I'm depressed, and I'm depressed because I'm not getting pussy, and the only thing getting me out of bed is pussy, and I know I can get it, so, I;m operating othe fucking theory that if I just grind it out for a bit I'll get pussy because all I need is that discipline to do the homework. I'm told I'm a hot guy so I shouldn't even need social skills. I need to stop freaking out, I need to chill out, say some bullshit to girls and thats it. When I saw the video of chase saying, you, yes you the PUA customer, yes you can even beat a hot guy if he hasn't been doing his homework. So I just gotta come do my homework, it's so fucking obvious. And I've always been that kid that doesn't do his homework. And that doesn't practice.

Hi MrMan
I think charm and charisma are the same.
If you are a Hot guy - and as you say depressed about getting pussy you are definitely sending out to women the “desperate vibe”. Women have a natural radar for this. It’s very unattractive to them afaik. from talking to female friends. It’s a big turn off.

have you considered paying for sex ?
Seriously , it will make you more laid back and kill this “desperate vibe”

Then you ought to have more success imo.
As this will be gone after getting laid.

 

[FAB DRONES]

Hi MrMan
I think charm and charisma are the same.
If you are a Hot guy - and as you say depressed about getting pussy you are definitely sending out to women the “desperate vibe”. Women have a natural radar for this. It’s very unattractive to them afaik. from talking to female friends. It’s a big turn off.

have you considered paying for sex ?
Seriously , it will make you more laid back and kill this “desperate vibe”

Then you ought to have more success imo.
As this will be gone after getting laid.

No, I wouldn't pay for sex. I do have my ex I can bang if I really want to. I'm desperate for a higher tier, tho. I'd rather not pay. I don't believe in that. Never even been to a strip club

 

[FAB DRONES]

My apologies for also spamming this thread. To get back on topic, I thought a big part of the appeal of pickup was all about how to be a lone wolf, how to pull of getting top tier pussy snatched from anywhere in the world with no need for bothersome social cajoling. How to play by your own rules, where you don't need to do all the work to be the alpha of some cool thing. So Will, are you saying that you should ideally be totally socially super skilled before going out cold approaching? I think that's dangerously close to the common idea that you gotta be rich and successful before you can get the hottest girls.
I was really inspired by total newbies doing the newbie challenege, just grinding it out, no context to their life, they don't even complete the challenge, and then they get a lay that month anyway? At least one like that. It's very inspiring to see people grind it out and get results. Tho you do see other guys experiencing traumatizing stuff. or like me, I am grinding without getting anywhere,. But you gotta put in the reps. It's like baseball. I always struck out in little league because I never practiced. You gotta take a bunch of swings. Isnt it better to focus on bedding girls quickly than some aimless attempts at socializing? That's good but it's tangential to the goal, is it not? I mean, believe me, I've contemplated trying to get friends as a first step.

That being said, getting social is definitely good life advice.

Like my sister told me, you gotta take yourself to the dog park. As in, you gotta socialize yourself. Like when we stopped taking our dog to the dog park she got weird.

 

[Brassfaced_Jim]

Oh yeah, I just had a whole conversation with some milf today, and just felt like my mind was blown how she made it look good even tho I clearly uncalibratedly went for her when I want young women. And she was into itbut just like interacting with an older lif by accdent i learned a lot, i actually regret it, it wass embarrasing, but, in night game she wouldn't t alk to me. IDK what im trying to say

it’s sounds here like she was helping you along with the pickup when u became uncalibrated during .
all good experience.
yeah night game is much harder.

 

[Brassfaced_Jim]

No, I wouldn't pay for sex. I do have my ex I can bang if I really want to. I'm desperate for a higher tier, tho. I'd rather not pay. I don't believe in that. Never even been to a strip club

Yeah it’s the desperation working against you paradoxically.
You hit on that paradox with the example of dudes trying harder befriend you - when u were not interested. think about that there is something there..

 

[Brassfaced_Jim]

Yeah it’s the desperation working against you paradoxically.
You hit on that paradox with the example of dudes trying harder befriend you - when u were not interested. think about that there is something there..

That is - think about how that can work with the hotter women u want.
The push -pull thing.
Try Negs / teasing on them on the approach and acting disinterested . If you are a good looking guy they should switch to trying to win YOU over in that case.
Chase has written many articles about this and in his guide for picking up in the main section here.

 

[Will_V]

My apologies for also spamming this thread. To get back on topic, I thought a big part of the appeal of pickup was all about how to be a lone wolf, how to pull of getting top tier pussy snatched from anywhere in the world with no need for bothersome social cajoling. How to play by your own rules, where you don't need to do all the work to be the alpha of some cool thing. So Will, are you saying that you should ideally be totally socially super skilled before going out cold approaching? I think that's dangerously close to the common idea that you gotta be rich and successful before you can get the hottest girls.
I was really inspired by total newbies doing the newbie challenege, just grinding it out, no context to their life, they don't even complete the challenge, and then they get a lay that month anyway? At least one like that. It's very inspiring to see people grind it out and get results. Tho you do see other guys experiencing traumatizing stuff. or like me, I am grinding without getting anywhere,. But you gotta put in the reps. It's like baseball. I always struck out in little league because I never practiced. You gotta take a bunch of swings. Isnt it better to focus on bedding girls quickly than some aimless attempts at socializing? That's good but it's tangential to the goal, is it not? I mean, believe me, I've contemplated trying to get friends as a first step.

That being said, getting social is definitely good life advice.

Like my sister told me, you gotta take yourself to the dog park. As in, you gotta socialize yourself. Like when we stopped taking our dog to the dog park she got weird.

I think there's a bit of a misconception about the message of my post, and it's probably my fault for not being clear.

I never said that guys should not do cold approach until they have great social skills.

What I said is that if a guy is struggling and stuck with getting tons of immediate rejections despite having done hundreds of approaches, and he also has no social life, he should think about putting a lot of that effort into socializing in general instead.

This is a specific situation and does not apply in general. Many guys who go into cold approach already have good or even great social skills, and usually these guys can get positive reactions for the most part, even if they don't yet know how to do the entire seduction. What they need to do is a lot of cold approach and practise their skills specifically in relation to women and sexual framing.

The issue here is that while any guy can choose to go out and approach like a machine, everything he does is training, and some kind of training is negative training. When a guy is bashing himself against the wall of cold approach, and getting rejected all the time, his self esteem becomes weak and he acquires a social identity of being a loser, all his instincts and his emotions and unconscious expressions align with that identity and reinforce it, and it's very difficult to get unstuck because his presentation becomes imbued with it and women are repelled from him - further reinforcing it.

General socializing would help him recalibrate his self perception so that he understands OK, my social skills in general are just crap it's not that girls hate me.

I personally think there is a bit of a McDojo mentality in seduction where guys want it to be like 'the complete loser gets the girl with some abracadabra hypnotic sex skills that blow everyone's mind' but most of that is pure fantasy that feeds guys desire to shortcut the process and avoid having to eat their vegetables and face reality.

The same way that any good fighter has to be fit, disciplined, squared away, training the boring basics repetitively every day for 90% of the time, and only once he's done that he can add the kung fu wow type stuff on top, a seducer has to train the basics of social skills all the time, so that he can add the art of seduction on top of a stable base.

 

[ChrisXKiss]

I wanted to add something, regarding getting used to rejection after rejection, and feeling like a loser.

Apart from the fact that for a long time I did think that the point of seduction is exactly to use strategies and techniques to get girls, I think I also felt that cold approaching, or generally practicing seduction is something abnormal, out of most people’s reality or comfort zone, so it is logical that they will be very defensive when you go up to talk to them.

And although I don’t really believe the first part anymore, I know you should be fine with yourself and genuinely provide a positive experience independently of the techniques, I still felt that cold approaching is normal to be seen as weird by other people.

The bottom line is that if girls consistently shut you down right away, move away from you, or are immediately just giving you the bare minimum of politeness, it's not because you didn't do this or that tactic, it's because you're not doing a good job of meeting people in general. It's not that hard to be a guy that other people are happy to meet, that's where social skills come in.

And this part made me really think about this view, especially the last sentence. I feel after a lot of going up to girls in any random scenario possible, I had starting really feeling that it is normal for most people to not want to talk to you, or be extremely closed under these circumstances.

My logic was that I am a random guy that I just saw them, maybe liked them and go and talk to them and get to know them. And if it’s a girl by herself, maybe she likes me upfront and feels like talking, but especially if it’s a group of people together, they are there to hang out with each other and any random person going up to talk to them will naturally feel weird.

And I didn’t care about that, I was thinking whatever, even if they think it’s weird to go up to a girl chatting with her friends and tell her she looks gorgeous and I’d like to get to know her, it’s what I want to do as a man and won’t restrain myself. I have to go and pursue what I want regardless what they will think of me.

So I had started accepting this thought of: I know it seems weird to people, but I don’t care, I will still approach. And this comment of yours made me realise that: Wait so it’s not normal for people to not want to meet you if they don’t know you? It should even be easy for them to want to? I am probably approaching it in a wrong way.

And I immediately realised that I had internalised this thought that they will find me weird by approaching anyway, that I had stopped caring about calibrating that much really, in a way I was subconsciously making it weird, so it would match with the reality I had.

I tweaked one two things these last days regarding my approach based on that, and I have seen quite positive interactions, whether they ended up somewhere or not. The seduction part can surely use more refinement but I could feel they were immediately more open to just talk.

It’s fascinating really, and does go back to mindset a lot. When I was thinking I was doing something weird, they were treating it as weird. When I started treating it as something normal, they started feeling it was quite more normal as well.

 

[Spyce D]

I can attest to it .

Last year , when I started my day game journey , I got myself enrolled in some course (so became part of a social circle), salsa classes and focused only on doing indirect approaches and doing small convos for as long as I am not comfortable in going direct or creating longer convos .

 

[FAB DRONES]

On Pickup Artists, the Incels of their Time

A Look Back at a Strange Subculture

funnything.substack.com

 

[Brassfaced_Jim]

I can attest to it .

Last year , when I started my day game journey , I got myself enrolled in some course (so became part of a social circle), salsa classes and focused only on doing indirect approaches and doing small convos for as long as I am not comfortable in going direct or creating longer convos .

I’ve tried Salsa classes - definitely helped me become more at ease and smoother in general approaching women.

 

[Will_V]

On Pickup Artists, the Incels of their Time

A Look Back at a Strange Subculture

funnything.substack.com

That article's the typical sort of semi-mainstream gander at covering pickup, going straight to taking potshots at peacocking and negging, and treating the whole thing as some sort of joke. I don't see a grasp of any substantial aspect of seduction there at all.

I prefer to think of the problem in a different way. The greatest enemy of any student is their own ego, and the first lesson in any domain of skill is the lesson of humility - the humility to accept where you are at, and the humility to accept what you have to invest before reaching your desired goal.

When someone has a fragile ego, what they are most fearful of is failing at very basic things. They don't really care if they fail at advanced stuff, because they know it's beyond them. So, to protect their ego, what they will do is avoid basic stuff and attempt only advanced stuff, so that when they fail, their ego is not under threat - because after all the advanced stuff is very difficult, and they weren't expected to succeed anyway.

Someone with a stable ego understands that such thinking is their enemy, so they will discipline themselves to train the basic, fundamental stuff all the time, and accept that even at the basic stuff they might fail embarrassingly, but eventually they will build a strong foundation and reach more advanced stuff as well.

Someone with a very strong ego goes and tries advanced stuff so that they understand the reality of how weak they are, allows the experience to humble them with fire, and uses the shame of failure to motivate them to grind through eating all their vegetables in the knowledge that it's the only way to get through.

Regardless of how you do it, at the end of the day, the only student that fails long-term is the first one, whose ego precludes them from training the basics at all.

The practical reality of seduction is that until you are in the bedroom, you spend 99% of the time communicating, and most guys communication is very poor. The most basic tenet of social communication is self-control, to stay cool and affable under pressure, and I believe this is where most failed approaches go wrong. There's no point learning how to wave your wand if you can't hold onto it.

A guy in this situation, where maybe he's starting off with a baseline of negative emotion, keeps getting rejected and going on emotional rollercoasters, needs to figure out how to positively interact with people in general in all kinds of social situations, in sexual and non-sexual contexts. He needs to learn how to 'tread water' socially so to speak so he's not thrashing around making a mess and giving himself bad experiences, so that when he feels like things are getting away from him, he knows how to return to a zone of familiar competence.