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Correct - people have way too much time stuck at home with these lock downs.
Yes a far more interesting topic than what constitutes Red.
We should go back to that.
Attraction - Can it be Generated? - An Introduction to Compliance-Based Game
- Thread starter Teevster
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We should go back to that.
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totally agree with @Hue and @Skills .
The original post was to give a technique to less experienced guys on how to get results faster than normal . I do not believe that it was intended as a reference for intermediary guys and up ( unless they are super horny ). From here , since it is a lot ego involved , it was sidetracked to a more philosophical approach and so on.
The truth is that guys at the beginning of their quest do not need too much theory , but simple techniques on how to harvest the low hanging fruits, thus getting some results under their belt in the shortest time possible , and thus reducing the amount of guys opening threads to say that they give up on women .
The whole debate sounds more or less like debating if a child that is 10 should focus on primary school or he should focus on getting a Phd from Harvard in Quantum Physics
The original post was to give a technique to less experienced guys on how to get results faster than normal . I do not believe that it was intended as a reference for intermediary guys and up ( unless they are super horny ). From here , since it is a lot ego involved , it was sidetracked to a more philosophical approach and so on.
The truth is that guys at the beginning of their quest do not need too much theory , but simple techniques on how to harvest the low hanging fruits, thus getting some results under their belt in the shortest time possible , and thus reducing the amount of guys opening threads to say that they give up on women .
The whole debate sounds more or less like debating if a child that is 10 should focus on primary school or he should focus on getting a Phd from Harvard in Quantum Physics
I wouldn't delete the article. For the newbies and intermediate PUAs, I think it adds value. And guys can always experiment and confirm/reject the findings.
The arguments I see here are things that the average dude is not going to be concerned with.
What if you resuscitate her?
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I like that
Does 'oneitis' count as a red? Does this thread give hopes to guys that they can flip a red thats blown them out and turned into oneitis? Well maybe even harder or unflippable if they've gotten needy during the oneitis phase, but that's not my point. My point is if you can flip a red, oneitis could fall into the red category as well and be flippable with compliance so long as you weren't needy during the oneitis phase, right?
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You can in theory , but first of all you need proximity.
Then you need to run preselection , basically it means that you have to flirt with other girls in "front of her" let's say . Then you need to restart the seduction process and not fuck up again
In reality , by the time you start flirting with other girls and get some results , you will just do not want her anymore , unless she is this super special girl ( the odds being extremely low though)
It confused me a bit when one or two members said they turned a red and been with them for years now, and I need to check thats what they wrote[as opposed to it being a yellow], but yeah, I just dont understand how compliance can have someone stay with you in a LTR, with zero attraction. eg that example in the original post about a fat chick saying her ass cheeks can give just as good head, and the guy had desire, but not attraction[assuming he didn't like fat chicks], how would he stay with her for LTR if he had no attraction?
Would it be easier starting a different thread to talk about if "attraction" can be created over the longer period?
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Check @Bacchus post above about https://www.skilledseducer.com/threads/the-red-yellow-green-continuum.22769/ . He explains the concept better than anyone here
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These are very good point. I also have a hard time seeing a relationship without attraction - i.e. purely based on compliance.
There has been some research indicating that people in the third world who were forced to marry (either forced or in the context of arranged marriage) have eventually learned to not only live together, but eventually started liking each other on a deeper level. They kind of grew on each other, and oftentimes the "the love" in these relationships tend to be more intense than those caused by initial passion.
My grandmother married my grandpa kind of against her will. Her devotion and love, and sorrow when he passed away was truly unchallenged. It was genuine sorrow. There must be something here.
Interesting indeed.
I really agree with you that these deserves another thread, but sadly I am a bit busy at the moment.
Best,
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Then your job is to make them not ignore you and give you the time of day - that's basically what game is, or at least hook game is all about - i.e. "buying time".
Step one: get to make her listen
Step two: set the frame
step three: escalate the process, seal the deal.
That's how things works.
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Does not make any sense.
I am talking about two different frame-works. Either it is compliance based traffic light system you are using, or an attraction based.
Red can be both attraction and compliant based. So can green....
Are you looking at the traffic light system as a system to distinguish compliant from non-compliant girls, or to distinguish between attracted to not attracted girls? that is the question.
.
First of all... NO! As many more experienced guys have noted, it is possible to swtich over a Red. You should read the good old "Iranian from Hell" story that used to be required readings back in the days. Sure I agree the way the Iranian guy in the story pulls is not smooth but it illustrate a point: you can make it work!
I did not understand this.
No, this is simply not the case. Does this mean that the girl you perceived as red, being unavailable, bitchy, non-compliant and so on, actually turn out to be yellow just because you ran perfect game and got circumstantial luck? And then say you ran similar game (similarily good and tight game) but did not get to do her because of some weird shit taking place - I do not know, like maybe the girl getting a hearth attack or something (happening to me as you know). Would then this external circumstance affect the definition of whether she is a yellow or a red?
Consider these two propositions:
A. Say she was non-compliant (assumed red). I run perfect game and no wildcard takes place, then she turns out be a yellow.
And then...
B. Consider now the same starting point - she is equally non-compliant as in case (A). I also run perfect game, but here she gets a fucking hearth attack. I will not shag her. Will then this girl be classified as a RED?
This becomes absurd.
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Also my grandparents did the same thing , just that my grandfather was also beating her from time to time , because this is how most men were ending a discussion in contradiction back in the days , so somehow normal behavior from men . What I can say though is that , even though my grandmother was quite unhappy in the marriage , because my grandfather was very unreasonable , stubborn and violent , she still mourned him and at his funeral and saying all the time " to whom you let me ? " . She even misses him now , after a couple of years since he passed away and start crying everytime she is remembering her youth.
Same thing with third world countries that you mention , and I know what I am talking about as I grew up in Romania and lived there till I was like 24 , and can easily compare my mother generation with the girls in my generation now ( was born exactly a couple of days after communism ended ) .
I am not saying this as a critique , and agree with most of the things that you write about and find you a very knowledge guy , but what you are saying now is not taking into consideration a lot of factors , like for example social shamming if she divorces , or even in extreme cases like being stoned to death or being thrown acid on her face as things are "settled" in the arab countries
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Yes, which originally gave people an idea of on how much work each of the girls would require, and a way to screen out girls that are too much hassle (with too little return).
It was also meant as a tool for those guys relying heavily on physical escalation - i.e. pure screening game. This was why it was invented - I mean you cannot just caveman a red girl, unless you are JMULV and like to pick up soaps in jail.
For this reason the system was invented.
I am aware of that. I have always favored writing what works rather than what people wanted to hear, but that's basically it. Maybe my biggest sticking point as a writer.
There is a certain "dragon" who used to this, for this reason taking about investement when talking about pick up tend to resonate badly in many people, myself included.
Again, nothing wrong with going for greens and going for yellows if one feels like it. Nobody is saying that happiness for everyone is turning over reds. Heck I even admit in the OP that I oftentimes just land a good Green (Satisficing you know).
But then, this is not an excuse to share a wrong statement such as "you simply cannot get reds". Ok maybe you made a mistake writing that in the original article. It happens.
Yet, you keep bringing this dogma into this thread - a thread that was dedicated for advanced guys, not intermediate guys. The problem is not really that you said the following in your article. I kind of sympathize (although not fully agree) with writing a simple, and easy to understand article for beginners.
The issue is that you keep bringing and defending that "beginner friendly" position in a thread for advanced guys. We do not seek what is useful for beginners here. We seek the full truth. You can simply not defend such a position here. It simply does not cut.
If you simply stated that you said in your article that you could not get REDs because of pragmatic reasons for beginners, then so be it. That would have been fine.
I care for the success of guys. But not in this thread. This thread is not a thread where I act as a coach, but where I discuss as a PUA - for my own joy and learning.
Again, there is a place for everything.
This thread is not the place for empathy and understanding of beginners.
I have stated this openly multiple times: I do coach, and I enjoy it. I deal with GREAT people. I admit most of them are not really newbies. But I love them.
But I am first and foremost a PUA - a guy who goes out, and innovate, push the limits, and etter my game. This is who I primarily am, and the guy who pays for my coaching, chose me as their coach for THIS EXACT reason.
Again, I will repeat myself - it is fine to have a pragmatic simplified article for beginners on the blog. But don't come here and defend this position as the truth in threads like this.
It was already discussed in the OP.
Yes. Correct.
Fair enough. I think both types of traffic light systems are viable. I too tend to favor this one (based on compliance).
Sure but this is not what we really care about in this thread.
I do not see any major problems with the article, the problem is that you defend that point as some kind of truth when it fact it is just a pragmatic shortcut (which I see nothing wrong with). Again there is a place for everything.
Best,
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Also my grandparents did the same thing , just that my grandfather was also beating her from time to time , because this is how most men were ending a discussion in contradiction back in the days , so somehow normal behavior from men . What I can say though is that , even though my grandmother was quite unhappy in the marriage , because my grandfather was very unreasonable , stubborn and violent , she still mourned him and at his funeral and saying all the time " to whom you let me ? " . She even misses him now , after a couple of years since he passed away and start crying everytime she is remembering her youth.
Same thing with third world countries that you mention , and I know what I am talking about as I grew up in Romania and lived there till I was like 24 , and can easily compare my mother generation with the girls in my generation now ( was born exactly a couple of days after communism ended ) .
I am not saying this as a critique , and agree with most of the things that you write about and find you a very knowledge guy , but what you are saying now is not taking into consideration a lot of factors , like for example social shamming if she divorces , or even in extreme cases like being stoned to death or being thrown acid on her face as things are "settled" in the arab countries
Great comment.
And I love Romania.
Great girls.
Regarding those extreme examples such as "acid on face" and "stoning" which happens in some extremist countries in the arab world (and usually in the country-side mind you - you will not see such things happening in say Damascus or Beirut among st other many other places) are in my book EXTREME circumstances.
You can always find an outlier to every theory. This is the case everywhere in social science (I consider pick up a social science).
Now, I do not consider Romania a special case. I have been to Romania three times.
It is a great place for pick up - although the clubs can be annoyingly loud.
Best,
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"He looked like shit, was fat, ugly as sin, wore clothes that looked like it came from the salvation army, and a worn out baseball cap. Oh, and did I say he was 45 Y.O. about, and probably didn't speak ENglish [...] As well, in this thoroughly racist country, Iranians are at the very bottom of the barrel, below gaijins, Japanese, Asians..everything..that is as low as you go [...] if your ugly, just get in there, and show personality. that will work the same as looking like Brad Pitt...So dont worry if you're ugly, it just doesn't matter..."
Teev.......you can't be serious lol.
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It was not written by me. was written by Maniac High.
I do not know how credible this story is, but I like the point is illustrates.
Best,
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@Teevster yes those are outliners like you said , but it does not mean that things are super peachy in the cities , life in the city it is just a little bit more civilized than on the country side . More or less is the same thing everywhere
Totally agree with you that pick up is a social science , as more or less is a mixture between microeconomics ( with emphasis on the game theory) and applied psychology.
Romania is not a special case now , but things were super different during the communism times . Now it is a country not that far away from the rest of the developed countries.
What I am trying to say though is that most of the time marriages and relationships are just a form of a collective survival , either from a social stand point ( as it is the case with 3 world countries ) , either from an economical point ( as it is in the case of the developed countries ) , so the example you gave is not the best to show how compliance is the only thing that matters .
My theory is that the reds that you manage to move on the green side of the spectrum already had an initial attraction towards you ( high or low , this is very difficult to quantify ) , just that either they were not in a good mood when you first met them , either they were just trying to DHV in their social circle , either were shit testing you from the beginning . If this was not the case , they would just not give you the time & space to have a chance to win them over . I mean as an example , you will not give your time & space to a girl that you find ugly , but you might give the time & space to a girl that you might find at least somehow attractive. This happens as more or less everyone is looking for that special one , as deep down everyone is looking for a real connection , and somehow we also know deep down that good looks is only temporary .
So in reality the girls that you manage to win over , are not really red , but orange ( between red & yellow ) , and yes , the only way to make the transition is via compliance. The more she is away from the really green side ( hookup basically ) the more compliance you will need to isolate her and hopefully show her how a real man loves a woman
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This old classical discussion. My understanding on "can you create attraction" has evolved from certainly to no to a qualified yes.
First certainly because I got into pickup and it sounded great and all the gurus seemed so wise and the tactics made sense etc.
Second I thought no way because of empirical results:
1) even if in my words and behaviors I executed what seemed to be "good proper game" girls above a certain attractiveness level simply would not go along with it ever
2) I found I could execute an approach concretely just the same as another guy and do similar things and at the end of it she would me massively attracted to him and not me.
From my analysis, discussion and observation I concluded that "vibe" was an integral part of attraction and smv and that with all things considered total smv gave one a hard quality ceiling and that was that.
Now I'm a bit more open to entertaining a different view, and will seek to test it out: the idea from Gunwitch that there is no actual neurological thing called attraction, there is only social frame, emotional stimulation and physiological arousal.
It still does mean in practice that a ceiling exists, even if it has a few cracks. Namely because if you're doing tinder or approaching and getting a number, she is going to be in a detached social frame, and decide based on adherence to her tribe's status symbols whether you make the cut or not.
Game is still very important here though! Social frame is one piece of the puzzle social acceptance does not guarantee Sex, and one's skills in emotional stimulation and arousal significantly affects the close rate.
The other crack is the "spur the moment" situations, she's bored has nothing to do and is taking a leisurely stroll on a park, or she's in a club and all her friends already are hooking up. In these cases her priority is going to be less on social acceptance of her dating choices and could be more yolo with her decision making. Of course obviously the only way to truly pull it off is to get a sdl or snl, otherwise if you're below her league in total smv she will flake.
The final crack as I understood from Gunwitch is the "random magical chance encounter" that he tries to manufacture, and with compliance tools you try to make it seem like meeting you was serendipitous and thus in line with a romantic plotline, lowering the smv threshold for social acceptability.
I can't say I've ever pulled off this last crack, but it makes sense how it could happen. The fast sex crack I think everyone here has pulled off at some point, but it's also very low % and not at all consistent. So my intention is to work in all respects, get my 6s and 7s from standard game, dedicate a day and a night per week to sdl and snl game and another day to this indirect style and see if I can develop skills in it through time. (once it's possible to go out again, obviously)
So as an approximation and by and large smv does impose a quality ceiling but 1) smv includes many factors (like vibe) 2) game can still wildly influence close rates within a league and 3) there may be a couple of ways to crack the ceiling, but low % (sdl snl game) or very low target volume potential (indirect day game)
First certainly because I got into pickup and it sounded great and all the gurus seemed so wise and the tactics made sense etc.
Second I thought no way because of empirical results:
1) even if in my words and behaviors I executed what seemed to be "good proper game" girls above a certain attractiveness level simply would not go along with it ever
2) I found I could execute an approach concretely just the same as another guy and do similar things and at the end of it she would me massively attracted to him and not me.
From my analysis, discussion and observation I concluded that "vibe" was an integral part of attraction and smv and that with all things considered total smv gave one a hard quality ceiling and that was that.
Now I'm a bit more open to entertaining a different view, and will seek to test it out: the idea from Gunwitch that there is no actual neurological thing called attraction, there is only social frame, emotional stimulation and physiological arousal.
It still does mean in practice that a ceiling exists, even if it has a few cracks. Namely because if you're doing tinder or approaching and getting a number, she is going to be in a detached social frame, and decide based on adherence to her tribe's status symbols whether you make the cut or not.
Game is still very important here though! Social frame is one piece of the puzzle social acceptance does not guarantee Sex, and one's skills in emotional stimulation and arousal significantly affects the close rate.
The other crack is the "spur the moment" situations, she's bored has nothing to do and is taking a leisurely stroll on a park, or she's in a club and all her friends already are hooking up. In these cases her priority is going to be less on social acceptance of her dating choices and could be more yolo with her decision making. Of course obviously the only way to truly pull it off is to get a sdl or snl, otherwise if you're below her league in total smv she will flake.
The final crack as I understood from Gunwitch is the "random magical chance encounter" that he tries to manufacture, and with compliance tools you try to make it seem like meeting you was serendipitous and thus in line with a romantic plotline, lowering the smv threshold for social acceptability.
I can't say I've ever pulled off this last crack, but it makes sense how it could happen. The fast sex crack I think everyone here has pulled off at some point, but it's also very low % and not at all consistent. So my intention is to work in all respects, get my 6s and 7s from standard game, dedicate a day and a night per week to sdl and snl game and another day to this indirect style and see if I can develop skills in it through time. (once it's possible to go out again, obviously)
So as an approximation and by and large smv does impose a quality ceiling but 1) smv includes many factors (like vibe) 2) game can still wildly influence close rates within a league and 3) there may be a couple of ways to crack the ceiling, but low % (sdl snl game) or very low target volume potential (indirect day game)