Is game harder than it was 10 years ago?

[Teevster]

I think flaking may be worse in Europe than over here in the states because a lot of women over here in the states, outside of major liberal hotspots such as California and NYC, don’t really care about Covid anymore. They decided they rather live their life.

Most young europeans have stopped caring about covid as well. Remember that europe has been under severe lockdowns and faced severe restrictions for longer than ANY PLACE in the world aside from Australia and New Zealand. Most europeans are fed up and want to move on.

Best,
Teevster

 

[Baron]

Different contexts make comparisons relatively worthless without endless caveating.

1 in 100 looks terrible, until the guy tells you he only approaches supermodels running to nail appointments.
1 in 10 looks great, until the guy tells you he only approaches seated solo tourists who are his exact archetype match who IOI him.

Yes, exactly, it's ridiculous how ppl take these numbers seriously. Context is everything. It's like comparing notch counts, let's take two 30 year old dudes, one has a notch count of 5, the other 50. Who has better "game"? You might want to say the guy with 50 ... until you find out the first guy is an average-looking dude who's 5'5" living in London and all his lays have been super models. The second guy is a 6'2" American male model who's been living in Moscow and has banged only 4s, 5s and 6s.

Some of the factors you need to take into account:

- looks (height, face, age, body, style, etc)
- nationality, geographic location, language barriers
- SMV of targets
- level of competition

To me, 1 from 30 approaches (day game) seems like a horrible ratio, but perhaps I'm not accounting for context.

Having said all that, I wouldn't say that numbers/ratios are completely worthless, as a man who is good at attracting and seducing women is going to be getting laid. Just that they should be taken with a giant pinch of salt as a determiner of how good a guy really is at getting laid.

And then there's the question of what you consider is "getting laid".

This seems to be an overlooked point on this forum based on the posts I've read. Like, what's the objective here? Just to get laid by any means or get laid only on your terms? I'll pass on a lay if I feel I need to date the girl a number of times, mislead her about my intentions, spend a ton of money on her, etc etc just to get in her pants if that's all I want. If a guy has a better ratio than me by doing those things, to me that doesn't make him a "better seducer". I wouldn't even call that seduction.

 

[Teevster]

Yes, exactly, it's ridiculous how ppl take these numbers seriously. Context is everything. It's like comparing notch counts, let's take two 30 year old dudes, one has a notch count of 5, the other 50. Who has better "game"? You might want to say the guy with 50 ... until you find out the first guy is an average-looking dude who's 5'5" living in London and all his lays have been super models. The second guy is a 6'2" American male model who's been living in Moscow and has banged only 4s, 5s and 6s.

This is why meet-to-lay ratio is a thing, because it gives an indicator of how selective a guy is.

Why makes you think that Moscow is any easier than London? I would say it is the opposite. London isn't considered a place where it is hard to pull. I have quite a bit of experience with London - this includes even daygame.

Ever picked up girls from Moscow?

This seems to be an overlooked point on this forum based on the posts I've read. Like, what's the objective here? Just to get laid by any means or get laid only on your terms? I'll pass on a lay if I feel I need to date the girl a number of times, mislead her about my intentions, spend a ton of money on her, etc etc just to get in her pants if that's all I want. If a guy has a better ratio than me by doing those things, to me that doesn't make him a "better seducer". I wouldn't even call that seduction.

This is a good point that I think is not discussed enough.

Best,
Teevster

 

[trashKENNUT]

This seems to be an overlooked point on this forum based on the posts I've read. Like, what's the objective here? Just to get laid by any means or get laid only on your terms? I'll pass on a lay if I feel I need to date the girl a number of times, mislead her about my intentions, spend a ton of money on her, etc etc just to get in her pants if that's all I want. If a guy has a better ratio than me by doing those things, to me that doesn't make him a "better seducer". I wouldn't even call that seduction

In Asia, we called this behavior as "good with girls".

I just smile... knowing that my balls was dragged thru glass with spikes, when I hear that statement, and that the world will always have poor people and rich people.

In case, I don't have money, yet.

z@c+

 

[Baron]

This is why meet-to-lay ratio is a thing, because it gives an indicator of how selective a guy is

Not sure I see how meet-to-lay shows how selective a guy is. Whether or not you're selective, you're still only approaching girls you want to lay.

Why makes you think that Moscow is any easier than London? I would say it is the opposite. London isn't considered a place where it is hard to pull. I have quite a bit of experience with London - this includes even daygame.

Ever picked up girls from Moscow?

I haven't spent a significant amount of time in London in 20 years, maybe it's not as bad as I think. But I think a lot of guys consider it an unfriendly place because of all the diversity, there's a lack of that friendly sense-of-community vibe you get in some other places and it's harder to stand out from the crowd. I know guys who live there for work and can't wait to get the fk out.

But comparing London to Moscow for a western guy? First of all the ratio of women to men in Moscow is more favourable (81.4 males per 100 females) compared with a 50/50 split in London. Taking into account the quality of Russian women, that's a lot of potential single targets. Yes, I did pick up there about 6 years ago, but was from Tinder and was only there for a week and I speak a bit of Russian too. I've heard there are cities in Siberia with much friendlier women so maybe Moscow wasn't the best Russia example.

I just smile... knowing that my balls was dragged thru glass with spikes, when I hear that statement, and that the world will always have poor people and rich people.

In case, I don't have money, ye

I can't follow the point you're making. What's rich and poor got to do with it?

 

[Teevster]

Not sure I see how meet-to-lay shows how selective a guy is. Whether or not you're selective, you're still only approaching girls you want to lay.

Because the better the meet-to-lay ratio is, the more likely a guy can allow himself to be selective, and actually get the desired result from him selectivness. A guy who has a 1/100 ratio will very unlikely be selective. Good ratio is a predisposition to be selective.

I haven't spent a significant amount of time in London in 20 years, maybe it's not as bad as I think. But I think a lot of guys consider it an unfriendly place because of all the diversity, there's a lack of that friendly sense-of-community vibe you get in some other places and it's harder to stand out from the crowd. I know guys who live there for work and can't wait to get the fk out.

Most guys are not PUAs,

How does diversity necessarily make a place unfriendly? How does it make it unfriendly in London, but nice in Paris?

And which major metropolitan city has a "sense-of-community vibe" in the first place?

And what makes it harder to stand out in London compared to other major cities?

So many questions.


I know plenty of people in for example Paris who keeps bitching about Paris being a shithole. But it is not - it is great. Paris and London and quite similar in many ways.

There are plenty of things I hate about London. One of the major issues with London is the high criminality rate in certain areas.

But for pick up, London is a wonderful place. Amazing venues, tons of different types of venues - women from all around the world, as well as "easy locals". Also minimal risk of facing a language barrier.

I have numerous times considered moving there, and I probably will in the future.

But comparing London to Moscow for a western guy? First of all the ratio of women to men in Moscow is more favourable (81.4 males per 100 females) compared with a 50/50 split in London.

I have been in almost all EE countries, as well as post-soviet countries. I fail to see how being Western will help you in Moscow. Have you even been to Moscow?

Sure the male/female ratio will play in your favor... but the effects are minimal. Also why do people then complain about New York being so hard, when the men/female ratio is also favorable there? Why is Moscow "easy" and NYC "hard", considering the ratios are similar.

Guys these days make zero sense to me.

Nevertheless, I struggled much more with girls in Moscow than girls in London. Please share some of your experience with girls from/in Moscow.

Thanks.

Best,
Teevster

 

[Baron]

Because the better the meet-to-lay ratio is, the more likely a guy can allow himself to be selective, and actually get the desired result from him selectivness. A guy who has a 1/100 ratio will very unlikely be selective. Good ratio is a predisposition to be selective.

That's a fair point, but consider this scenario ... let's say there are two guys, one goes to a fancy club mainly full of gold diggers and sexy attention whore types, all dressed to the nines, all 7s,8s and 9s. He approaches the entire club and eventually gets one lay, with a 7.5. Meanwhile the other guy goes to a meat market and gets a lay after approaching three 5s (1/3 ratio) ... which guy is more selective?

Most guys are not PUAs

True, but those same guys have been to places like East europe, south america, far east etc. and found it much easier to pick up.

How does diversity necessarily make a place unfriendly? How does it make it unfriendly in London, but nice in Paris?

And which major metropolitan city has a "sense-of-community vibe" in the first place?

And what makes it harder to stand out in London compared to other major cities?

So many questions.

I don't know man, your experience seems to be the total opposite of practically everyone I've ever met who's lived in London. Actually, I knew only one guy who moved to London for pleasure and women, and ironically he was Russian.

I'm assuming you're North American, so your experience might be different (again, context). I'd be pretty surprised if I met a Brit here in east europe who'd tell me how much better London is for women. But who knows, maybe it's changed, or maybe I'm basing my opinion on old memories and anecdotal evidence from a bad sample of men. And you're right about the lack of language barrier, that's definitely an underrated advantage that London has.

Regarding the sense of community comment, I should clarify that there are friendlier districts of London which do have more of a community type atmosphere that you don't find in the touristy/business areas.

I have been in almost all EE countries, as well as post-soviet countries. I fail to see how being Western will help you in Moscow. Have you even been to Moscow?

Yes, I have, as stated in my previous post. I've been everywhere in EE, though I'd like to visit more of Russia (only been to St Peter and Moscow).

How does being Western help in Moscow? My experience was that girls were curious about you, similar to, though not to the same degree as in east europe in the early 2000s. Back then in EE, I would have considered you insane for asking how being a westerner is an advantage. In certain venues on some nights, being a westerner and preferably having dark hair, you just needed to open your mouth and say anything in English to get a girl's attention. I knew guys with horrible game who were getting laid (including myself at times, lol). Granted, I'm not saying Russia is like east europe in the 90s/early 2000s, but the girls certainly seemed more friendly and were hotter on average than girls in London, at least in my experience, when I was there.

Please share some of your experience with girls from/in Moscow.

As said, I was only there for a week (probably a bit less) about 6 years ago. Had maybe 3-4 dates through Tinder as it was easy to get matches over there and I wasn't day gaming a lot. One lay. I remember girls complaining about the lack of or quality of local men. Went to one night club, I don't recall much of the night, I don't think it was very eventful and probably we chose the wrong type of venue. Anyway, my style of communicating with women was very different then and my Russian is better now, so I'd really need to go back to check it out properly, perhaps visit other parts of Russia.

 

[Teevster]

That's a fair point, but consider this scenario ... let's say there are two guys, one goes to a fancy club mainly full of gold diggers and sexy attention whore types, all dressed to the nines, all 7s,8s and 9s. He approaches the entire club and eventually gets one lay, with a 7.5. Meanwhile the other guy goes to a meat market and gets a lay after approaching three 5s (1/3 ratio) ... which guy is more selective?

The whole point of pick up is to approach the girls you desire. Going for easy targets just because of availability is "hook up" and not "pick up" (to use Gunwitch's brilliant distinction).

But in the context above, one would classify as proper pick up:
- Context 1: he clearly is just spamming. At best, he has a bad meet-to-lay ratio and odds are, he did not get his first choice, nor second, nor third...hence meet-to-lay ratio still is a good marker for selectivity. Caveat: if he approached tons of girls in order to build social proof, then I would agree that meet-to-lay ratio as a parameter needs to be adjusted. Now if all he did was spamming, chances are big that he won't get laid as a result of negative social proof.
- Context 2: this is not pick up. This is hook up.

There is also a fallacy in context one, namely that a hot club girl may not necessarily be harder to pull than the average looking girl, and sometimes they may even be easier to deal with than ugly girls, who often have plenty of issues with themselves and end up resisting for no rational reasons.

True, but those same guys have been to places like East europe, south america, far east etc. and found it much easier to pick up.

Unless they are seasoned PUA's, I don't believe any of this. Most guys talks about EE being a pussy goldmine. But after I ask "normal man" about his trips, they most of the time just went to see prostitutes.

Similar applies to SE-Asia, although I have to admit that getting laid there is EASY.

I don't know man, your experience seems to be the total opposite of practically everyone I've ever met who's lived in London. Actually, I knew only one guy who moved to London for pleasure and women, and ironically he was Russian.

Why then is London, just like LA one of the worlds main PUA-Hubs?

I'm assuming you're North American, so your experience might be different (again, context).

No I am not. I am French (the irony).

How does being Western help in Moscow? My experience was that girls were curious about you, similar to, though not to the same degree as in east europe in the early 2000s.

The Early 2000's have a rather different cultural, economical and political climate than today. Lots have changed. Girls in EE and Russia don't have this good old "marry a westerner" type of vibe. Young EE girls, already back in the late 2009 (18-19 year old girls) started behaving like any WE girls. There are many reasons for this, but I remember when I was 18, and I did my first trip to Bulgaria, I was shocked to find out how much similar young adults in EE where to WE European girls. I was expecting them to be quite different to say Scandinavian girls (I grew up in Scandinavia), but they were not.

Now, what I did realize however is that the older crowd in EE is much different to western Europeans. People who are my parent's age or younger are like from a different world.

. I knew guys with horrible game who were getting laid (including myself at times, lol). Granted, I'm not saying Russia is like east europe in the 90s/early 2000s, but the girls were certainly more friendly on average than girls in London, at least in my experience, when I was there.

To me, Russian girls had the most bitchshield, were the most testy, where the most annoying to deal with in all of Eastern and post-sovietic Europe. This is ESPECIALLY true for the overly rich and snobbish Moscow girl. Heck, they are worse than a Champs-Elysées girl in terms of behaviour.

But you are probably right. Eastern Europe and former-Soviet countries were probably pussy goldmines 20 years ago (i was NOT active in field back then). But a lot has changed since then. The changes were already noticeable changes in the young crowd already in 2009... and each time I went back to some EE countries, I noticed tremendous changes from the last time I had been there.

Tinder lays aren't valid data.

Best,
Teevster

 

[Skills]

To me, Russian girls had the most bitchshield, were the most testy, where the most annoying to deal with in all of Eastern and post-sovietic Europe. This is ESPECIALLY true for the overly rich and snobbish Moscow girl. Heck, they are worse than a Champs-Elysées girl in terms of behaviour.

^ second this!

 

[Baron]

There is also a fallacy in context one, namely that a hot club girl may not necessarily be harder to pull than the average looking girl

Yes, that's true, that's why I emphasized the club was full of gold diggers and attention whores, as those women are actually harder to pull than your average "hot women", unless you're throwing money at them, in which case it's no longer "pick up".

Why then is London, just like LA one of the worlds main PUA-Hubs?

to be honest, I've never heard this, but maybe you're right

To me, Russian girls had the most bitchshield, were the most testy, where the most annoying to deal with in all of Eastern and post-sovietic Europe.

Maybe you were going for the wrong kind of Russian girl? Seems like a bit of a generalisation. I knew a guy who would often go to Odessa in Ukraine (before the recent troubles with Russia) and do very well with Russian tourists. And he was no PUA. He would struggle with the local Ukrainians, however.

No I am not. I am French (the irony).

LOL, take it as a compliment on your written English. Was basing the assumption on your Americanised spelling.

The changes were already noticeable changes in the young crowd already in 2009

Changes already started with EU expansion and introduction of cheap flights, way before 2009. Pre 2004 were the good old days. Though it wasn't just about "marrying a westerner", that was just a stereotype. They were genuinely curious about foreigners, especially dark-haired, mediterranean looking western guys. You weren't there, I was. Depending on the region, you'd get stared at on a daily basis, even when they were holding hands with their boyfriends. However, the heyday in central Europe (Czech, Slovakia) ended a bit earlier than further east (Poland). Apparently the 90s was the time to be in Prague, Bratislava etc, though I wasn't active or travelling back then.

 

[Tr1cky]

I don't know man, your experience seems to be the total opposite of practically everyone I've ever met who's lived in London.

Maybe that's because he has Game unlike (nearly) everyone else

 

[trashKENNUT]

Maybe that's because he has Game unlike (nearly) everyone else

U bring an Important Caveat. because this is so many things. Even intermediate to advanced guys, it varies.

An intermediate might look good because he knows a location or that lay counts more than 50 is considered "advanced" until the game starts to fail at more nuance places.

Example: You can't just shout louder at a bar where rich people resides. Or the high school cool guy suddenly finds himself "normal" outside his bubble. I see the latter happened way too often.

z@c+

 

[Baron]

Maybe that's because he has Game unlike (nearly) everyone else

But ironically he struggles in Russia, which is a pussy goldmine for a westerner by all accounts.

 

[Baron]

Sure the male/female ratio will play in your favor... but the effects are minimal. Also why do people then complain about New York being so hard, when the men/female ratio is also favorable there?

Forgot to respond to this ... among other things, there's a massive difference between an abundance of hot slavic/Russian women and an abundance of obese American women (this is not just anecdotal, 63% of adults are obese or overweight according to the New York State Dept of Health).

Unless you're into larger women (nothing against that if that's your preference), you're simply not going to notice the favourable ratio in NYC as a lot of those extra women are going to be invisible (metaphorically speaking, lol), and competition for the hotties will still be relatively high. Whereas in Russia and similar countries, you're going to notice a lot more targets and you'll feel that there's less competition from other men.

 

[Skills]

Forgot to respond to this ... among other things, there's a massive difference between an abundance of hot slavic/Russian women and an abundance of obese American women (this is not just anecdotal, 63% of adults are obese or overweight according to the New York State Dept of Health).

Unless you're into larger women (nothing against that if that's your preference), you're simply not going to notice the favourable ratio in NYC as a lot of those extra women are going to be invisible (metaphorically speaking, lol), and competition for the hotties will still be relatively high. Whereas in Russia and similar countries, you're going to notice a lot more targets and you'll feel that there's less competition from other men.

i brought this up in my post and video...

 

[Teevster]

Forgot to respond to this ... among other things, there's a massive difference between an abundance of hot slavic/Russian women and an abundance of obese American women (this is not just anecdotal, 63% of adults are obese or overweight according to the New York State Dept of Health).

Unless you're into larger women (nothing against that if that's your preference), you're simply not going to notice the favourable ratio in NYC as a lot of those extra women are going to be invisible (metaphorically speaking, lol), and competition for the hotties will still be relatively high. Whereas in Russia and similar countries, you're going to notice a lot more targets and you'll feel that there's less competition from other men.

Have you looked into what age range that consistutes the favourable female/male ratio in Russia? It ain't the younger generations to give you a hint.



Reference.

-Teevster

 

[Teevster]

But ironically he struggles in Russia, which is a pussy goldmine for a westerner by all accounts.

No strawmen please. I did not say I struggled. I just said I found them annoying, and that I found girls in London way easier (London one of the easier places in Europe next to Copenhagen).

Russia and former-soviet union is a pussy goldmine due to prostitution. Otherwise list me a single known PUA who pulls massive ass in former soviet union.

Most who moved to EE are there because life is cheap and because women are gorgeous. Both very valid reasons.

-Teevster

 

[Chase]

@Baron,

Forgot to respond to this ... among other things, there's a massive difference between an abundance of hot slavic/Russian women and an abundance of obese American women (this is not just anecdotal, 63% of adults are obese or overweight according to the New York State Dept of Health).

Unless you're into larger women (nothing against that if that's your preference), you're simply not going to notice the favourable ratio in NYC as a lot of those extra women are going to be invisible (metaphorically speaking, lol), and competition for the hotties will still be relatively high. Whereas in Russia and similar countries, you're going to notice a lot more targets and you'll feel that there's less competition from other men.

Last time I was in New York a few years back it was filled with thin women.

I actually passed through New York with an overseas friend, whom I'd forewarned about the US's crushing amount of overweight women compared to overseas... after the first half hour in New York my friend said, "I don't know what you're talking about; I've seen a few fat women, but most of these girls look good, healthy, and thin!" I couldn't argue with that either; it was true.

There's a BMI calculator here... it draws from 2015-2016 data, so maybe it's dated and there's been a land whale explosion in NYC... but according to this 42% of women age 25-29 and 46% of women age 18-24 in New York are of healthy BMI. These are also coincidentally the age ranges with the most lopsided extra women compared to men... there are +126,000 more women than men in the 20-24 age range in New York City.

So, lots of extra women compared to men, and half of them are of healthy weight.

It could be that NYC's just exploded in fatties over the past several years since I was there and gotten horrible... dunno.

This walking tour from one week ago appears to suggest it's still doing quite fine so far as female body types are concerned:

You might be suffering from 'old spot blindness'... I notice every time I've lived in a city for more than two years it seems like there are more and more fat girls and fewer and fewer hot girls. When I first came to the city there were virtually no fat girls; then after a few years they're everywhere.

But after I move away, when I revisit again a year or more later, all the fat girls are gone again and the city is once more full of thin, hot girls.

It's some sort of weird optical illusion / mind trick where spots you're less familiar with you notice all the attractive opportunities, but as you become increasingly familiar with a place the downsides start emerging. "Familiarity breeds contempt", so to speak.

Chase

 

[Skills]

If you guys think usa women as thin as European or Asian women I want a hit of the crack you are smoking....I mean come on what is next tens from Ethiopia as jacked as USA football players...

 

[Chase]

If you guys think usa women as thin as European or Asian women I want a hit of the crack you are smoking....I mean come on what is next tens from Ethiopia as jacked as USA football players...

lol.

Just saying... it's not like you go to New York and it's all People of Wal-Mart, colossal women on their mobility scooters, etc...