Is game harder than it was 10 years ago?

[Warped Mindless]

One thing's for sure, it SHOULD be harder to pick up girls since all the new guys in the field, guys in their 20s, were brought up in the youtube/social media age, where it's almost impossible not to be aware of information and advice related to pick up and dating. If learning a skill or language is supposed to be easier as a teenager or young adult, and you'd think most young horny guys would WANT to learn how to pick up and seduce girls, then you would expect heavy competition from new guys nowadays, and you'd expect women to be desensitised to "tried-and-tested" lines, routines and approaches.

But then you also have a whole bunch of reasons for guys not to get out and meet women -- youtube, Netflix, video games, covid, etc. Plus the popularity of dating apps, where it doesn't take any balls to initiate a conversation with a woman even though the odds are stacked against most men. And then there are movements like MGTOW, Incels, metoo, etc.

So what is actually happening on the ground may be another story.

If you want to be a professional poker player, or even a serious casual poker player, there is absolutely no shortage of websites, training courses, books, and even poker coaches available. Yet the vast majority of poker players still suck.

Being aware of information, using the information, and getting good at applying it are all different things and most people just wont.

 

[sab]

Like somebody said there is no hard data to support either views, only personal perceptions and opinions. Covid added a twist to the whole game. I do Daygame and approach girls despite a constrained supply of hot girls. Because I love it. Location matters. You have to move to where the pussy market is richer. James Marshall moved from Canberra Australia to Europe because the supply is much better.

 

[Winston]

If you want to be a professional poker player, or even a serious casual poker player, there is absolutely no shortage of websites, training courses, books, and even poker coaches available. Yet the vast majority of poker players still suck.

Being aware of information, using the information, and getting good at applying it are all different things and most people just wont.

Regarding poker, sorry but this is not true.

It's harder than ever to make a good living playing poker. The best poker players earn way less than the best poker players from 10 years ago, and they work harder.

When the first website teaching how to play well was launched (Cardrunners), the online poker games got quickly significantly harder, and they have kept becoming harder ever since, due to the increase in the quality of information available. Now to be a winning player you have to train against a Game Theory Optimal bot, and review each part of your poker game under the light of game theory, there is way less room for intuition and psychology, like it was 10 years ago.

It doesn't matter if bad players still exist. The competition for cleaning the tables is between the skilled players (not sure if the same dynamic is true regarding women, I am just telling what it is in poker).

 

[Warped Mindless]

Regarding poker, sorry but this is not true.

It's harder than ever to make a good living playing poker. The best poker players earn way less than the best poker players from 10 years ago, and they work harder.

When the first website teaching how to play well was launched (Cardrunners), the online poker games got quickly significantly harder, and they have kept becoming harder ever since, due to the increase in the quality of information available. Now to be a winning player you have to train against a Game Theory Optimal bot, and review each part of your poker game under the light of game theory, there is way less room for intuition and psychology, like it was 10 years ago.

It doesn't matter if bad players still exist. The competition for cleaning the tables is between the skilled players (not sure if the same dynamic is true regarding women, I am just telling what it is in poker).

You aren’t wrong but it’s admittedly not a perfect analogy on my part.

Online poker is certainly harder than live poker. Before covid I could go into a live poker room and hear people discussing poker strategy yet a lot of them (2/5 NL) still completely sucked. But yeah, the big money in poker now is teaching it lol

 

[Winston]

You aren’t wrong but it’s admittedly not a perfect analogy on my part.

Online poker is certainly harder than live poker. Before covid I could go into a live poker room and hear people discussing poker strategy yet a lot of them (2/5 NL) still completely sucked. But yeah, the big money in poker now is teaching it lol

Yeah I admit my comment was centered on online. Live winrates, where there are more fishes and less skillfull players, have probably been less affected by this dynamic.

Online this is so bad that almost all the online pro that I knew have stopped playing (and many of them have move into cryptos).

 

[Teevster]

^ yes the difference for the million times is the consistency they may be full of dudes, ratios of 20 per 1 at times...Also most of them will not be dtf like back in the days etc... Anyways, I already explain the game has changed, in some for the better in some for the worst.... You can still get laid and get laid a lot and have rotations(dowhatworks does exactly what i recommend he got laid 6 times this month).... But it has gotten harder for most(my opinion has to do with women not coming out consistantly).... for a few easier (the one cross gaming and being strategic)... But the idea of back then vs now easier when it comes to cold approach is just no factual, mainly due to corona/social media/apps/bottle services/netflix/financial crisis/job relocations/deaths/illness....

Things will always change... but the changes in my opinion usually only requires minor tweaks here and there. The overall foundation doesn't change. It is usually a matter of "adding more of that" and "a bit less of that". Now, even though we are talking about minor tweaks to your game, it doesn't mean that those tweaks are not crucial - they are. In fact, failing to do those minor adjustments can impair your results drastically - even to the point of making one totally unsuccessful in field (whereas they would have gotten the same success, if not better success if only they had the willingness to apply those minor tweaks).

It is not like one has to relearn the whole thing. A rusty veteran will not only get his momentum back as well as realizing what has change and adjust accordingly in a matter of weeks of active "fielding".

The problem as you say are the current circumstances: the inconsistency that follows the patterns of the pandemic. When the infection rates go up, the field turns shit (or shuts down), and when the rate goes down, the field becomes better, if not amazing at times.

Hence, the current situation is contingent - contingent to the pandemic situational.

And because it is contingent on the pandemic, I think it is a mistake to assume any major changes yet. I think for now we just have to hold on and wait for the pandemic to be more or less over (wait till covid-19 turns endemic) before making any major claims about change. Fortunately, the pandemic is looking like it is soon to be over, and with the spring coming, the prognostics are looking good.

I think we can get a clearer picture of the so-called changes (if any) by this summer).

Until then we just have to do our best, without rushing to any major conclusions.

ut it has gotten harder for most(my opinion has to do with women not coming out consistantly)...

I think this is correct because only experienced and veteran nightgamers (and pua's in general) have the ability to calibrate fast to changing situations. Only the more experienced pua's can adjust in a matter of days.

Best,
Teevster

 

[Teevster]

Harder because of the feminist, almost anti-male movement in the world, especially in cities like London, where approaching on the street feels like you are trying to rape her or something. Women sort of like the fact they are empowered and may be acting more closed, etc.

This is mostly in the anglo-saxon world. Anglo-saxon feminism inspired by Mackinnon and Dworkin (Andrea) is the source of this movement. Continental European feminism tends to be more liberal. I suggest you compare texts by Simone De Beauvoir and texts by Catharine Mackinnon.

Best,
Teevster

 

[Teevster]

One thing's for sure, it SHOULD be harder to pick up girls since all the new guys in the field, guys in their 20s, were brought up in the youtube/social media age, where it's almost impossible not to be aware of information and advice related to pick up and dating.

I am one of them, and I grew up with Youtube and Social Media. It is true that men these days are exposed to dating advice more than say 2007. But the advice shared on Youtube is nothing like the real shit you would find here, or back in the days, on mASF. The advice on youtube is either watered down or a perverted version of what comes out of the pickup community (here referring to "neo-direct game" and all the crap).

I occasionally do see some men who use their newly acquired pu knowledge in field. You can spot them from afar. Some even want to teach me their magic (lol).

And they all suck.

It is nothing like what the initial community teaches or attempted to teach.

Hence I kind of fail to see how this factor (or men being more easily exposed to #crappy" pick up advice) has any impact on the overall difficulty in field.

But then you also have a whole bunch of reasons for guys not to get out and meet women -- youtube, Netflix, video games, covid, etc. Plus the popularity of dating apps, where it doesn't take any balls to initiate a conversation with a woman even though the odds are stacked against most men. And then there are movements like MGTOW, Incels, metoo, etc.

Now this I agree with.

Damn... this thread has turned into one hell of a sociology discussion.



Best,
Teevster

 

[Baron]

When I started gaming in Manhattan you actually had to get a girl's home phone number, and she had to be home when you called if you wanted to speak with her!

That's a rare perspective these days, when you're old enough to remember dating in the pre mobile/cellphone/internet age and not too old that you're still able to compete with gen Z men for gen Z women. A lot of men in that age group are already settled, raising families or if not have let themselves go and are done.

The "calling a home number" times for me were the mid-late teenage years, not that I was any good with women back then, but I remember having to explain to some girl's father why I wanted to speak with his daughter etc. Plus, writing letters and postcards was still a thing for a while, even when society started to adopt email.

 

[Skills]

Like somebody said there is no hard data to support either views, only personal perceptions and opinions. Covid added a twist to the whole game. I do Daygame and approach girls despite a constrained supply of hot girls. Because I love it. Location matters. You have to move to where the pussy market is richer. James Marshall moved from Canberra Australia to Europe because the supply is much better.

Correct I mentioned this on my Post and video as one of the solutions

 

[Skills]

Things will always change... but the changes in my opinion usually only requires minor tweaks here and there. The overall foundation doesn't change. It is usually a matter of "adding more of that" and "a bit less of that". Now, even though we are talking about minor tweaks to your game, it doesn't mean that those tweaks are not crucial - they are. In fact, failing to do those minor adjustments can impair your results drastically - even to the point of making on totally unsuccessful in field (whereas they would have gotten the same success, if not better success if only they had the willingness to apply those minor tweaks).

It is not like one has to relearn the whole thing. A rusty veteran will not only get his momentum back as well as realizing what has change and adjust accordingly in a matter of weeks of active "fielding".

The problem as you say are the current circumstances: the inconsistency that follows the patterns of the pandemic. When the infection rates goes up, the field turns shit (or shuts down), and when the rate goes down, the field becomes better, if not amazing at times.

Hence, the current situation is contingent - contingent to the pandemic situational.

And because it is contingent to the pandemic, I think it is a mistake to assume any major changes yet. I think for now we just have to hold on, and wait for the pandemic to be more or less over (wait till covid-19 turns endemic) before making any major claims about change. Fortunately, the pandemic is looking like it is soon to be over, and with the spring coming, the prognostics are looking good.

I think we can get a clearer pictures about the so-called changes (if any) by this summer).

Until then we just have to do our best, without rushing into any major conclusions.



I think this is a correct, because only experienced and veteran nightgamers (and pua's in general) have the ability to calibrate fast to changing situations. Only the more experienced pua's can adjust in a matter of days.

Best,
Teevster

Correct we are in agreement.... I just hate the attitude that I feel in the community at times since we are so problem solving oriented and anti complaining and bitching that sometimes, we are not able to openly talk about issues and bring twiking,, like you mentioned that is practical vs work out bro, dress nice bro, game is luck, get your Instagram top notch, get cut bro... I can't stand no practical advice

 

[Skills]

That's a rare perspective these days, when you're old enough to remember dating in the pre mobile/cellphone/internet age and not too old that you're still able to compete with gen Z men for gen Z women. A lot of men in that age group are already settled, raising families or if not have let themselves go and are done.

The "calling a home number" times for me were the mid-late teenage years, not that I was any good with women back then, but I remember having to explain to some girl's father why I wanted to speak with his daughter etc. Plus, writing letters and postcards was still a thing for a while, even when society started to adopt email.

I am Still here. Gun, ricardus, chase,pob, westindianarchives,vision etc...

 

[DonGately]

Skills, one piece of actionable advice I repeat here and elsewhere is to be the best dressed man she sees all day, if not all year. Not everyone can afford it, but I wear bespoke suits and shirts [the shirts are probably cheaper than you think, many tailors will give you a deal your first time], French silk ties, pocket squares, cufflinks, etc.

That's what works for me, and would work for most guys in virtually all cities. The right suit cut/style can slim you down or bulk you up. Nothing you don't already know. Of course, you have to be comfortable in a suit but for many guys, especially younger guys, they *need* to get comfortable in a suit while going out. It's something that should be discussed more on here as most guys have no clue how to dress up. You stand out in a great way to women without peacocking in the Mystery scrolling LED lamp and silly hat mode. Guys -- You're probably not going to be able to rock that Supreme hoodie and skinny jeans forever. Start mixing it up now.

To me, the difference btw that and 'dress nice' is the difference btw a new Bentley and a cute Honda.

The change I made from going from made-to-measure wear to true bespoke suiting definitely raised my ability to get girls who are 7.5 to the rare 9s+. I get complimented by random women of all ages on my outfits, what could be a better IOI? For anyone struggling in recent years, I'd doubly recommend it. Start with a nice pinstripe or solid navy suit, 3-4 shirts and take it from there. Go to a real men's tailor who can perfect any store-bought suit to your shape. Same for a winter coat. Women notice your shoes first thing, believe me.

And it's a helluva lot easier to do than get cut when you hit your late 30s & 40s....I'll stop before turning this into a fashion blog, there's plenty of them already.

I do think when covid 'ends' shortly and everyone is going out again-- girls are gonna want to get all dressed up again. Be prepared.

 

[Gaturro]

I wasn’t gaming 10 years ago, I’m only 23, BUT when I do classic night game I come across wild cards that I’m sure didn’t exist 10 years ago:

More and more guys are cross-gaming, combining online game and night game. I do it myself on Instagram, and Chase perfectly put it into words:

You're using it with people you're bumping into in the party scene... seems like you're messaging these girls first, they dig you, then at some point in the future when you run into them in a venue it's a warm open instead of a cold open.

Sometimes guys like promoters/DJs/regulars even tell these girls they’ll be at xyz club, so if you cold approach a girl who already has an “objective”, seducing one of those girls becomes an uphill struggle (I have been on both sides of the table, so you can use it in your favor as well…).

Still, in my opinion this doesn’t mean game has become more difficult. For example I have read a lot of old material about LMR, and I’m facing it less and less (this might have to do with me improving my game, being only 23 I can’t tell, only telling my experience).

 

[Skills]

Skills, one piece of actionable advice I repeat here and elsewhere is to be the best dressed man she sees all day, if not all year. Not everyone can afford it, but I wear bespoke suits and shirts [the shirts are probably cheaper than you think, many tailors will give you a deal your first time], French silk ties, pocket squares, cufflinks, etc.

That's what works for me, and would work for most guys in virtually all cities. The right suit cut/style can slim you down or bulk you up. Nothing you don't already know. Of course, you have to be comfortable in a suit but for many guys, especially younger guys, they *need* to get comfortable in a suit while going out. It's something that should be discussed more on here as most guys have no clue how to dress up. You stand out in a great way to women without peacocking in the Mystery scrolling LED lamp and silly hat mode. Guys -- You're probably not going to be able to rock that Supreme hoodie and skinny jeans forever. Start mixing it up now.

To me, the difference btw that and 'dress nice' is the difference btw a new Bentley and a cute Honda.

The change I made from going from made-to-measure wear to true bespoke suiting definitely raised my ability to get girls who are 7.5 to the rare 9s+. I get complimented by random women of all ages on my outfits, what could be a better IOI? For anyone struggling in recent years, I'd doubly recommend it. Start with a nice pinstripe or solid navy suit, 3-4 shirts and take it from there. Go to a real men's tailor who can perfect any store-bought suit to your shape. Same for a winter coat. Women notice your shoes first thing, believe me.

And it's a helluva lot easier to do than get cut when you hit your late 30s & 40s....I'll stop before turning this into a fashion blog, there's plenty of them already.

I do think when covid 'ends' shortly and everyone is going out again-- girls are gonna want to get all dressed up again. Be prepared.

There are different sexy stereotypes in a hip hop club, emo club, rave club or dive bar with a suit you will go home with your dick on your hands... if you found a suit angle great thin man used to dress like this.... I made a video on stereotype I will link later a suit may attract gold diggers in certain clubs... I name drop teevester, bachaus, Cody etc....

 

[pancakemouse]

There are different sexy stereotypes in a hip hop club, emo club, rave club or dive bar with a suit you will go home with your dick on your hands... if you found a suit angle great thin man used to dress like this.... I made a video on stereotype I will link later a suit may attract gold diggers in certain clubs... I name drop teevester, bachaus, Cody etc....

This guy is stuck in his old Roosh V memes "just wear a slick blazer bro". Pure idiocy. As far as I know he just does Seeking Arrangement.

Try rolling up to a Miami nightclub in your bespoke suit. Good luck getting AMOGed by 10 black dudes wearing hypebeast shit.

Like somebody said there is no hard data to support either views, only personal perceptions and opinions.

I am still the only guy I know who publishes fully transparent daygame and nightgame data. If only I existed ten years ago!

But if you were beginner-intermediate there is zero doubt whatsoever in my mind it has gotten much easier to pickup a hot girl.

Great, let's talk data! How many daygame and nightgame approaches do you have in the last two years?

 

[Warped Mindless]

I’ve gone out in suits after a long day of business meetings and some women respond VERY well, others don’t care at all. Depends on the women. A suit in a hip hop club? Maybe not unless done right. In an upscale jazz lounge? Yes!

 

[Teevster]

I wasn’t gaming 10 years ago, I’m only 23, BUT when I do classic night game I come across wild cards that I’m sure didn’t exist 10 years ago

Which wildcards are new now that did not exist back then?

Best,
Teevster

 

[Baron]

It is true that men these days are exposed to dating advice more than say 2007. But the advice shared on Youtube is nothing like the real shit you would find here, or back in the days, on mASF. The advice on youtube is either watered down, or a perversed version of what come out of the pick up community (here referring to "neo-direct game" and all the crap).

Well, a few thoughts:
1) For perspective, let's go back to the 90s for a second. The thought that materials related to dating or seduction might or might not exist didn't even cross the mind. There were mainly general self-development books that could only offer indirect benefits to a guy interested in improving his game. Even if there were books on how to attract women, you'd have to physically go to a bookstore to purchase them and deal with the stigma associated with that. Fast forward to 2010 or later and there's an abundance of pick up/dating advice books, videos, courses, recorded seminars and podcasts available to consume anonymously on the internet. Even the most generic, "watered down" dating advice like "don't be needy" is gonna benefit a guy more than nothing. At least it will put him on a journey that may lead to better advice.
2) It's not like the "old stuff" is completely unavailable. The Game by Neil Strauss is still widely read and you can find materials and books by Mystery etc (if you regard that as "real shit").
3) I don't know what "neo-direct game" is. You'll have to be specific, like who are you referring to.

Also the question "is game harder?" is region specific. As I mentioned before, 20 years ago in EE, times were completely different. In some parts of the region, you didn't even need much game to pull girls if you had the right nationality. Hell, I remember in a certain club in Poland we all witnessed an Italian dude who was mute pulling on the dancefloor. OK, the OP stated 10 years, so 20 years is a bit beyond the scope.

And to do a proper analysis, you'd need to be gaming in the same region over the entire period, and you'd need to take into account any changes in your gaming style, looks, dress sense, financial security, venues you've been frequenting, etc. etc.

 

[James Cruse]

I am one of them, and I grew up with Youtube and Social Media. It is true that men these days are exposed to dating advice more than say 2007. But the advice shared on Youtube is nothing like the real shit you would find here, or back in the days, on mASF. The advice on youtube is either watered down or a perverted version of what comes out of the pickup community (here referring to "neo-direct game" and all the crap).

I occasionally do see some men who use their newly acquired pu knowledge in field. You can spot them from afar. Some even want to teach me their magic (lol).

And they all suck.

It is nothing like what the initial community teaches or attempted to teach.

Hence I kind of fail to see how this factor (or men being more easily exposed to #crappy" pick up advice) has any impact on the overall difficulty in field.

From my experience - I haven’t seen this.

I’ve actually overheard (with my own ears) many guys, in clubs and daygame, spitting real game - no magic tricks, no peacocking and no gimmicks.
I’ve seen alot of guys that aren’t doing good approaches, but they have good verbals after that, so it’s gets the job done.

Like I said in another post, it’s the guys that do smooth approaches that you don’t really see because you just write it off that they knew them so those approaches aren’t visible unless you overhear their convo.

I see friends of friends or guys in clubs (most of my mates are married or in ltr’s) who start talking to a very attractive girl, I see them 20-30 mins later leaving with them. I ask my friends if they knew each other - nope, just cold approaches.
Now I never heard what they said, but I wouldn’t know it even happened unless I was looking for people doing game.

I think it’s a huge mistake to dismiss the fact that game and knowledge about game is now widespread because it’s everywhere.
Guys in first world english speaking countries - like Australia where I live - all have time, money and great educations, so the next thing we want handled is being able to consistantly and strategically pull and that info is absolutely everywhere.

No-one does that mystery method shit - they wouldn’t even get let into a club here dressed like a peacocked magic-doing loser. Plus finding Mystery info would be harder than finding better quality and more recent seduction material anyway.
It’s all over Youtube, tiktok, twitter, Amazon the news, television and google.

It may be the case that in non-english speaking Europe, that game principles aren’t widespread - I’ve seen that in the Scandinavians and Germanics coming here on working visas - the guys have zero game and the girls have rarely, if ever, been cold approached in their own countries - other than by non-natives or refugees.

The point is - it is getting more competetive with other men because their game is getting better and they’re approaching more.

While less women are coming out due to social media & dating apps giving them the attention and any quick sex they want, without being seen or judged by their social circle.

So saying nothing has changed in the dating market and it’s rare that guys know game is just not true.