Is game harder than it was 10 years ago?

[Teevster]

1) For perspective, let's go back to the 90s for a second. The thought that materials related to dating or seduction might or might not exist didn't even cross the mind. There were mainly general self-development books that could only offer indirect benefits to a guy interested in improving his game. Even if there were books on how to attract women, you'd have to physically go to a bookstore to purchase them and deal with the stigma attached to being a "loser who can't get girls". Fast forward to 2010 or later and there's an abundance of pick up/dating advice books, videos, courses, recorded seminars and podcasts available to consume anonymously on the internet. Even the most generic, "watered down" dating advice like "don't be needy" is gonna benefit a guy more than nothing. At least it will put him on a journey that may lead to better advice.

Well, pick up should have been much harder in the late 2000's compared to the 90's then - due to the popularization of the game? I do not have any data on this since I was not active during the 90's (for obvious reasons).

I remember back on mASF people ranting about the game getting harder due to the release of The Game.

FYI - things did not get harder as pick up became more popular (it boomed in 2010).

Sure some advice like not being needy will help men, but those overall principles, although useful is so distanced from the things that actively gets one result in field. Being non-needy, confident and all that will help you, but it will not help you open and hook sets in field in real time. Anybody who is actually active in this field should know that.

2) It's not like the "old stuff" is completely unavailable. The Game by Neil Strauss is still widely read and you can find materials and books by Mystery etc (if you regard that as "real shit").

Again, why is this suddenly a problem now, and not back in say 2010?

3) I don't know what "neo-direct game" is. You'll have to be specific, like who are you referring to.

Overly direct game.

Basically, not respecting the "don't be needy rule".

Hint: most men still do not follow this rule. This includes newer "puas" I have met.

Also the question "is game harder?" is region specific. As I mentioned before, 20 years ago in EE, times were completely different

I do not have data on EE from 20 years ago. But how is 20 years ago relevant to this thread? It is not what is being discussed. We are trying to discuss more recent and contemporary changes.

Hell, I remember in a certain club in Poland we all witnessed an Italian dude who was mute pulling on the dancefloor.

One time occurrences doesn't give a good indicator of one's skills. Elders on this forum has discussed this in depth already.

And to do a proper analysis, you'd need to be gaming in the same region over the entire period, and you'd need to take into account any changes in your gaming style, looks, dress sense, financial security, venues you've been frequenting, etc. etc.

How does financial security affect your results in field?

I have been gaming in the same region for 10 years. Should count as something.

Best,
Teevster

 

[Skills]

From my experience - I haven’t seen this.

I’ve actually overheard (with my own ears) many guys, in clubs and daygame, spitting real game - no magic tricks, no peacocking and no gimmicks.
I’ve seen alot of guys that aren’t doing good approaches, but they have good verbals after that, so it’s gets the job done.

Like I said in another post, it’s the guys that do smooth approaches that you don’t really see because you just write it off that they knew them so those approaches aren’t visible unless you overhear their convo.

I see friends of friends or guys in clubs (most of my mates are married or in ltr’s) who start talking to a very attractive girl, I see them 20-30 mins later leaving with them. I ask my friends if they knew each other - nope, just cold approaches.
Now I never heard what they said, but I wouldn’t know it even happened unless I was looking for people doing game.

I think it’s a huge mistake to dismiss the fact that game and knowledge about game is now widespread because it’s everywhere.
Guys in first world english speaking countries - like Australia where I live - all have time, money and great educations, so the next thing we want handled is being able to consistantly and strategically pull and that info is absolutely everywhere.

No-one does that mystery method shit - they wouldn’t even get let into a club here dressed like a peacocked magic-doing loser. Plus finding Mystery info would be harder than finding better quality and more recent seduction material anyway.
It’s all over Youtube, tiktok, twitter, Amazon the news, television and google.

It may be the case that in non-english speaking Europe, that game principles aren’t widespread - I’ve seen that in the Scandinavians and Germanics coming here on working visas - the guys have zero game and the girls have rarely, if ever, been cold approached in their own countries - other than by non-natives or refugees.

The point is - it is getting more competetive with other men because their game is getting better and they’re approaching more.

While less women are coming out due to social media & dating apps giving them the attention and any quick sex they want, without being seen or judged by their social circle.

So saying nothing has changed in the dating market and it’s rare that guys know game is just not true.

Brah! listen, even at the top of pua not everybody knew about "game" stuff, when david d was spamming eveyone with double your dating stuff (i got spam with it).... Most guys even actual former puas are not dedicated or actively practicing....

reading books and watching youtube and having knowledge is one thing.... Actively practicing and testing on the field is another.... (don't worry about this silliness people knowing game, is a non factor)..... Even 80% of the forum that knows game it should not affect you in the least if you are on the field with them...

Brah have you hung out with puas is a nightmare to be honest... (unless top guys)

 

[Teevster]

From my experience - I haven’t seen this.

I’ve actually overheard (with my own ears) many guys, in clubs and daygame, spitting real game - no magic tricks, no peacocking and no gimmicks.
I’ve seen alot of guys that aren’t doing good approaches, but they have good verbals after that, so it’s gets the job done.

Again, are these guys pulling every night they go out? I have seen guys get results in field. I am not saying this is not occurring.

But are they consistent? Only thing that matters in defining skills (next to efficiency).

Like I said in another post, it’s the guys that do smooth approaches that you don’t really see because you just write it off that they knew them so those approaches aren’t visible unless you overhear their convo.

That is how proper game is done: when it is smooth and it looks like the guy and the girl(s) know each other from before. Good pick up is low key.

I think it’s a huge mistake to dismiss the fact that game and knowledge about game is now widespread because it’s everywhere.
Guys in first world english speaking countries - like Australia where I live - all have time, money and great educations, so the next thing we want handled is being able to consistantly and strategically pull and that info is absolutely everywhere.

Again, I am sure some of the material has helped many men. That is a good thing.

But if guys seem to get laid left and right as you claim, then pick up girls haven't gotten harder?

Or are you saying game has gotten harder, yet men where you live seems to pull left and right due to pick up and seduction material being available.

If it is the first one, then I would agree. I am have never claimed men never hooked up. Nor have I claimed things have gotten harder. Nor have I claimed that the widespread and popularization of pick up material hasn't had any effects on men and sex-dynamics. It surely has - although less than one may think.

People have always hooked up in clubs. Fact of life. Nothing new here.

But hook up is not pick up...

No-one does that mystery method shit - they wouldn’t even get let into a club here dressed like a peacocked magic doing loser. Plus finding Mystery info would be harder than finding better quality and more recent seduction material anyway.
It’s all over Youtube, tiktok, twitter, Amazon the news, television and google.

In fact, they are not reading good old pick up material like MM. That is real pick up. Not hook up.

And I do not see why you express so much hate towards MM. Not like I am into pure MM, but lots of concepts are key in it - including peacocking which DOES get me into high end venues that are hard to get into.

But it depends on how you pull it off and how well its suits you and your style. Fun fact, Mystery don't seem to struggle getting into higher end venues accross Europe.

What Material on Amazon or Youtube is better than Mystery Method?

It may be the case that in non-english speaking Europe, that game principles aren’t widespread - I’ve seen that in the Scandinavians and Germanics coming here on working visas - the guys have zero game and the girls have rarely been approached in their own countries - other than by non-native or refugees.

You serious?

You surely haven't been out in Oslo or Stockholm - this is the place where I see most men pull on a regulary basis. Those two places are probably the places where men have the most game in Europe (next to some southern European countries). Copenhagen is a different story though (Denmark in general is Chode-land).

And Scandinavia is not "non-english speaking". You are making things up.

FYI - Stockholm and Oslo had one of the most active PUA-lairs in Europe next to London back in the days.

PS: I Grew up in Scandinavia. I know the Scandinavian scene pretty well.

The point is - it is getting more competetive with other men because their game is getting better and they’re approaching more.

Yet, where you live, men are getting laid left and right?

So sayinf nothing has changed and it’s rare that guys know game is just not true.

For me knowing game is not the same as knowing about (some game).

PS: never said "nothing has changed".

Best,
Teevster

 

[Baron]

Well, pick up should have been much harder in the late 2000's compared to the 90's then - due to the popularization of the game? I do not have any data on this since I was not active during the 90's (for obvious reasons).

I remember back on mASF people ranting about the game getting harder due to the release of the game.

FYI - things did not get harder as pick up become more popular (it boomed in 2010).

I'm saying it SHOULD get harder (but not harder than the 90s when there was zero info) as most guys are exposed to game related advice and knowledge during their formative years, as theoretically it's easier to acquire a new skill in your youth. And there's much greater exposure now than 10 years ago. I don't think it reached that "critical mass" point in 2010 due to the state of youtube, social media and internet technology at the time.

But anyway, SHOULD and IS are two different things. I'm not at all suggesting that it IS getting harder now because of the recent exposure.

I do not have data on EE from 20 years ago. But how is 20 years ago relevant to this thread? It is not what is being discussed. We are trying to discuss more recent and contemporary changes

Was just to make a point that regional developments may come into play. There might be places which have seen relevant changes in the past 10 years specific to those regions.

One time occurrences doesn't give a good indicator of one's skills. Elders on this forum has discussed this in depth already.

That was just an anecdote, an example of the kind of thing you could witness at the time that wouldn't happen nowadays. I can recall many instances of guys with shitty game and fundamentals pulling ass back in the day.

How does financial security affect your results in field?

Less stress, fewer worries and distractions. Though ofc it's still possible for some guys to do well while being broke as hell and in debt.

 

[Gaturro]

Which wildcards are new now that did not exist back then?

Best,
Teevster

Hi Teevs! Sorry, English isn’t my first language, so maybe saying “wildcard” is wrong. I gave one example in that same post. I mean, maybe you approach a girl and she already has a “target” that night that she knows from online. Or she gets an instagram DM from a dude she really likes.

As all wildcards, they can be overcome with game, at least to an extent. And some probably existed before (for example text messages instead of DMs).

However, I’m sure they are more frequent now. For example a girl posts a story and she will get a few replies. If a guy she already fucked (and she likes him) replies to a story of hers saying he’ll pick her up, it’ll probably be harder for you to game her (but again, not impossible).

That probably didn’t happen with the same frequency 10 years ago, but again I’m assuming, I was only 13 at that time. It’s just a thought that I had and I hadn’t seen anyone pointing it out.

 

[Tr1cky]

For the most part I tend to avoid other men while doing pick up, but I've never encountered someone doing any thing I recognize as straight from game literature. I've bumped into a couple of clowns that were likely versed with game knowledge but they were just that, clowns.

Although I did have a girl ask me the other day if I was "negging" her lmfao.

I agree with teev on "being versed in game" vs "having game". I was "versed in game" for two years around 2014 when I was on lurking rooshvforum.
After a year of learning I thought I had game.

My LTR officially ended around that time and I was thrown into the field. Boy, did I learn quickly how little "have rock solid frame" "pocket square and blazer will set you apart" "don't be beta" actually does for you.

watching some YouTube videos, reading a few articles, doing a couple of approaches, gives you about a 5 to 10% boost over an "average guy", who btw only gets 7 lays in a lifetime.

I think anyone that believes game is popular, wide spread and effecting your results in the field is 100% wrong.

On a side note I do think the top 20% of men have a better body and style now than they did 20 years ago. If you are relying on those things to pull women I do think you will have a harder time now vs 20 years ago

 

[Teevster]

Hi Teevs! Sorry, English isn’t my first language, so maybe saying “wildcard” is wrong. I gave one example in that same post. I mean, maybe you approach a girl and she already has a “target” that night that she knows from online. Or she gets an instagram DM from a dude she really likes.

Nah your english is fine, and english is not my first language either.

If a girl had a "target for the night" she most likely would have met up with him asap. In which case he will be in set with her - and if so, then yes, that will be a hard one to deal with.

But this is no different from back in the days - i.e. people doing club date (dyi: it is a bad idea). Whether she texts and meets a guy she met online, or get a text from a guy she met at a party the week earlier... what is the difference? I can only see one: that the guy she met at a party will have higher compliance than a guy she has met online.

So no, this is not a new wildcard.

It also seems your are speculating, since you use words such as "maybe". Either you experienced it frequently, or you did not.

As all wildcards, they can be overcome with game, at least to an extent. And some probably existed before (for example text messages instead of DMs).

However, I’m sure they are more frequent now. For example a girl posts a story and she will get a few replies. If a guy she already fucked (and she likes him) replies to a story of hers saying he’ll pick her up, it’ll probably be harder for you to game her (but again, not impossible).

That probably didn’t happen with the same frequency 10 years ago, but again I’m assuming, I was only 13 at that time. It’s just a thought that I had and I hadn’t seen anyone pointing it out.

The man a girl met online is at the bottom of the food-chain. A woman will ALWAYS prioritize a man she has met in real life over guys she meets online. Basically, say you meet a girl in field, and she happen to have been texting with this guy she met online, and she happens to like you, the guy she met online will go second.

He is not a bigger treat than any other guys in the venue. I have never experienced nor heard about anyone losing a girl to a guy she was just texting with.

However, if he is a guy who has already fucked her, or worse, is already fucking her, then it is very hard to outcompete him. Basically, we used to have a saying "her fuckbuddy is invisible". This is because, even if she happens to find you more attractive, she feels more obligation towards the fuckbuddy. She also feels the social consequences from not staying loyal to the fuckbuddy would be too high and not worth it.

However, I’m sure they are more frequent now. For example a girl posts a story and she will get a few replies. If a guy she already fucked (and she likes him) replies to a story of hers saying he’ll pick her up, it’ll probably be harder for you to game her (but again, not impossible).

Guys never needed excuses such as "stories" to text a fuckbuddy. Men are not women, women need such excuses. Men do not. They want to fuck her, they will text her.

Also, your reasoning is off, since the majority of guys those type of girls fuck are not the guys who follow her on social media or like/follow/comment on her material on social media.

That probably didn’t happen with the same frequency 10 years ago, but again I’m assuming, I was only 13 at that time. It’s just a thought that I had and I hadn’t seen anyone pointing it out.

Hence your comment is based on speculation and not field experience. In this community field experience is everything. What isn't empirically experienced, are not valid claims.

Best,
Teevster

 

[Teevster]

I'm saying it SHOULD get harder (but not harder than the 90s when there was zero info) as most guys are exposed to game related advice and knowledge during their formative years, as theoretically it's easier to acquire a new skill in your youth. And there's much greater exposure now than 10 years ago. I don't think it reached that "critical mass" point in 2010 due to the state of youtube, social media and internet technology at the time.

But anyway, SHOULD and IS are two different things. I'm not at all suggesting that it IS getting harder now because of the recent exposure.

I almost stopped reading after seeing the massive usage of words such as "SHOULD". We do not care about hypothetical things here.

But to make the answer short: pick up was more mainstream and had more exposure back in 2010. Heck there were even TV-Shows dedicated to PU ("The Pick Up Artist", and "Key to The Vip"). The industry was BOOMING.

I work in this industry and I can tell you the numbers were much higher back in the days. Most main coaches have gone bankrupt. Even RSD (Real Social Dynamics) have moved on from teaching pure pick up to becoming more lifestyle oriented.

Was just to make a point that regional developments may come into play. There might be places which have seen relevant changes in the past 10 years specific to those regions.

Yeah there are of course some regional variations. But overall, especially in the western world (and i would say most of Eastern Europe follows similar trends to Western Europe norwadays) the trends are more or less the same.

That was just an anecdote, an example of the kind of thing you could witness at the time that wouldn't happen nowadays. I can recall many instances of guys with shitty game and fundamentals pulling ass back in the day.

You still see tons of weird shit in field - not less than back in the days. Actually you may see even more weird shit, due to the higher popularity of drugs such as MDMA and Cocaine in clubs compared to the early 2000's (a sad change I must admit).

I still occasionally see guys with trash fundamentals occasionally getting lucky. But it is true that less men get freebies in clubs nowadays since the "easy 6's and 7's" are usually online (Tinder). It is harder to get those easy pulls these days than back in the days.

There is an overall agreement regarding this point. But the overall goal of pick up or game is not about getting those freebies. Hence this point is off-topic to this thread.

Best,
Teevster

 

[Alpha13SC]

The man a girl met online is at the bottom of the food-chain. A woman will ALWAYS prioritize a man she has met in real life over guys she meets online. Basically, say you meet a girl in field, and she happen to have been texting with this guy she met online, and she happens to like you, the guy she met online will go second.

He is not a bigger treat than any other guys in the venue. I have never experienced nor heard about anyone losing a girl to a guy she was just texting with.

@Gaturro s online presence is massive. He's speaking just from another place than usual social media's users. So this might bend the rules.

 

[Teevster]

@Gaturro s online presence is massive. He's speaking just from another place than usual social media's users. So this might bend the rules.

Yeah, but this thread is not about online gaming.

And the guy with a good social media presence will of course have a benefit. But: sexy guy online < sexy guy IRL.

Just a fact. How do I know? I used to hang in the venues where the social media elite would hang. Heck, so do @Pelusita and others (people Bismarck know of too). We never had any issues dealing with those guys. 15 years in doing pick up in Clubs, I never lost a chick to some social media dude - nor has any of the people I have met. It may be due to the fact that the social media guy only has social value working for him, and usually... nothing else.

Facts are what matters here. Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings.

-Teevster

 

[Gaturro]

Nah your english is fine, and english is not my first language either.

If a girl had a "target for the night" she most likely would have met up with him asap. In which case he will be in set with her - and if so, then yes, that will be a hard one to deal with.

But this is no different from back in the days - i.e. people doing club date (dyi: it is a bad idea). Whether she texts and meets a guy she met online, or get a text from a guy she met at a party the week earlier... what is the difference? I can only see one: that the guy she met at a party will have higher compliance than a guy she has met online.

So no, this is not a new wildcard.

It also seems your are speculating, since you use words such as "maybe". Either you experienced it frequently, or you did not.




The man a girl met online is at the bottom of the food-chain. A woman will ALWAYS prioritize a man she has met in real life over guys she meets online. Basically, say you meet a girl in field, and she happen to have been texting with this guy she met online, and she happens to like you, the guy she met online will go second.

He is not a bigger treat than any other guys in the venue. I have never experienced nor heard about anyone losing a girl to a guy she was just texting with.

However, if he is a guy who has already fucked her, or worse, is already fucking her, then it is very hard to outcompete him. Basically, we used to have a saying "her fuckbuddy is invisible". This is because, even if she happens to find you more attractive, she feels more obligation towards the fuckbuddy. She also feels the social consequences from not staying loyal to the fuckbuddy would be too high and not worth it.



Guys never needed excuses such as "stories" to text a fuckbuddy. Men are not women, women need such excuses. Men do not. They want to fuck her, they will text her.

Also, your reasoning is off, since the majority of guys those type of girls fuck are not the guys who follow her on social media or like/follow/comment on her material on social media.



Hence your comment is based on speculation and not field experience. In this community field experience is everything. What isn't empirically experienced, are not valid claims.

Best,
Teevster

My usage of words like “maybe” is based on speculation about what happened 10 years ago, because I don’t know about that (only what I’ve read from you guys).

However, yes I am in field.

And I don’t know if a fuckbuddy will text a girl he’s currently fucking at 4 am on a Friday night out of the blue

However, I know that if she posted a story at a club with her friends.. now he can see she’s awake, and he can see she’s available. And guess what happens if he doesn’t have a better choice… he will be more likely to text her…

I’ve lost girls to this and I’ve taken advantage of this as well, against guys trying to approach them in real life.

What I’m saying has nothing to do with HOW you first meet. Guy meets girl in real life, guy follows her, so now he can see her stories. She can get a reply anytime. And yes, I know texts existed before, all I’m saying is that I believe the frequency is higher (after all, 10 years ago people wouldn’t be glued to their phones as much as now, and stories didn’t exist). And I didn’t even mention posting suggestive photos to their instagram close friends…

In my country, people my age (23) who sleep with girls but don’t follow them on social media are a minority, not a majority. Actually, I’ve noticed better results following girls than not following them (but that’s just my experience… and yes, infield)

We agree on club dates being the worst. However, meeting with a girl at a club (just casually telling her you’ll be there, or letting them find out on your stories, WITHOUT going together, NOT a club date) is a low investment way of having more options / preselection at a venue without owing them anything. I’ve seen lots of naturals do it, and sometimes I do it as well with girls I don’t mind fucking but I’m not interested enough to dedicate 100% of my attention on a date/inviting them home (but a quick fuck after an “unlucky” night out? sure!).

I agree with you, social media dudes rely too much on their social media presence, and most of them have little to no game. Even “cool” dudes have this problem. I’ve outgamed many of them infield as well.

Sorry if I looked like a kj, again English isn’t my first language and sometimes I don’t get my point across.

I just know that this is going on now. It’s like she can ping all her fuckbuddys (and orbiters) at the same time, without risking social frame. This didn’t exist 10 years ago. I don’t think it makes a big of a difference, don’t get me wrong, but it is happening (at least in my country) and I thought it’s worth pointing out.

 

[ulrich]

One thing's for sure, it SHOULD be harder to pick up girls since all the new guys in the field, guys in their 20s, were brought up in the youtube/social media age, where it's almost impossible not to be aware of information and advice related to pick up and dating. If learning a skill or language is supposed to be easier as a teenager or young adult, and you'd think most young horny guys would WANT to learn how to pick up and seduce girls, then you would expect heavy competition from new guys nowadays, and you'd expect women to be desensitised to "tried-and-tested" lines, routines and approaches.

You would believe so but in my experiences, if it is not in YouTube / Facebook / Instagram / etc the masses don’t know it exists.
And pickup is there only in its more basic forms surrounded by a sea of misinformation.

It’s funny when you think so… people hold the biggest knowledge repository in the history of humanity and 90% of them use it only to surf social media.
What a waste.

 

[Warped Mindless]

It’s easy to prove that pick up is no where near as popular as it used to be.

1) Google search trends. Go look up keywords and see how less often they are searched now.

2) Almost all the forums are dead and the seduction subreddit gets less traffic than ever.

3) All the big PUA companies are out of business.

4) Most of the lairs have died off.

5) We never got another season of The Pick up artist, keys to the VIP, and the documentary based on The Game got canceled.

Can only speak for North America and Europe but PUA stuff is no where near as popular as it was.

 

[ulrich]

It’s easy to prove that pick up is no where near as popular as it used to be.

1) Google search trends. Go look up keywords and see how less often they are searched now.

2) Almost all the forums are dead and the seduction subreddit gets less traffic than ever.

3) All the big PUA companies are out of business.

4) Most of the lairs have died off.

5) We never got another season of The Pick up artist, keys to the VIP, and the documentary based on The Game got canceled.

Can only speak for North America and Europe but PUA stuff is no where near as popular as it was.

Pickup was counterculture back then… and the woke train didn’t stop it’s course.

 

[Skills]

Yeah, but this thread is not about online gaming.

And the guy with a good social media presence will of course have a benefit. But: sexy guy online < sexy guy IRL.

Just a fact. How do I know? I used to hang in the venues where the social media elite would hang. Heck, so do @Pelusita and others (people Bismarck know of too). We never had any issues dealing with those guys. 15 years in doing pick up in Clubs, I never lost a chick to some social media dude - nor has any of the people I have met. It may be due to the fact that the social media guy only has social value working for him, and usually... nothing else.

Facts are what matters here. Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings.

-Teevster

Yeah these are buggy man hypothetical, those are unlikely scenarios...


Wow lol poor ricardus this post went down hill fast...

 

[Karea Ricardus D.]

From what I see on youtube and around the web these days (with the exception of girlschase), MM was easily 10 times more powerful than anything that's around now. The hardcore technical game was killed by RSD in 2008 when they made this massive push towards "natural game" and everyone followed suit cause it sounds so fucking great. You can just be yourself! No need to do all this outer game work. Kinda like, "lose weight without exercise and while eating pizza."

MM had only one flaw, it lacked sexualization. Once you add that (MM chassis + a sexualized engine if you will), you have the most powerful game I've ever seen. Sinn's record 15 lays in a month (mix online game + cold approach), CJ's record 16 (pure cold approach). They both did MM with added sexualization. In fact I would say it's fair to say they were the first to combine the two styles effectively. So while some game knowledge is widespread, it's a massively watered down version compared to what was available ~2007 and for a few more years after that.

I also think game awareness was higher back then, due to prime time TV shows and a NY Times best seller. I remember I was dating a girl from Sydney and she had heard all the common openers tons and tons of times... all the fucking time. "Would you ever date a guy who's still friends with his ex" she actually started to wonder why guys seem to have so much trouble with this particular question that she constantly gets asked it... even retard openers from back then like "I'm the kissing bandid, you must kiss me before you can pass" I asked her have you ever heard that? And she just said "sooooo many times!!" That was in 2007.

 

[Warped Mindless]

From what I see on youtube and around the web these days (with the exception of girlschase), MM was easily 10 times more powerful than anything that's around now.

Yep! All the older stuff (MM, swinggcat, original Gunwitch, Vin DiCarlo, etc) is better than the watered down stuff in the mainstream now.

The hardcore technical game was killed by RSD in 2008 when they made this massive push towards "natural game" and everyone followed suit cause it sounds so fucking great. You can just be yourself! No need to do all this outer game work. Kinda like, "lose weight without exercise and while eating pizza."

I think some of it comes down to personality types. I first started with MM and did it for six months. I disliked it a lot and had crap results. Ran into a RSD guy and the stuff he taught me immediately boosted my results with women. Little while later found Swinggcat and made my stuff much more sexual and again my results exploded.

MM had only one flaw, it lacked sexualization. Once you add that (MM chassis + a sexualized engine if you will), you have the most powerful game I've ever seen.

Since I didn’t have much success with MM I’m no expert on it AT ALL but would be very curious to hear your take on adding sexuality to MM. I have an idea of how I would do it but you know MM better than me so Could You elaborate on how you do it?

I also think game awareness was higher back then, due to prime time TV shows and a NY Times best seller. I

100% agree.

 

[Teevster]

The elders just won back the conversation.

-Teev

 

[Baron]

But to make the answer short: pick up was more mainstream and had more exposure back in 2010. Heck there were even TV-Shows dedicated to PU ("The Pick Up Artist", and "Key to The Vip"). The industry was BOOMING.

It’s easy to prove that pick up is no where near as popular as it used to be.

1) Google search trends. Go look up keywords and see how less often they are searched now.

2) Almost all the forums are dead and the seduction subreddit gets less traffic than ever.

3) All the big PUA companies are out of business.

4) Most of the lairs have died off.

5) We never got another season of The Pick up artist, keys to the VIP, and the documentary based on The Game got canceled.

This topic is turning into a phd thesis but anyway .. a few stats:

"The pickup artist" show was aired on the American TV channel VH1 in 2007. I don't know if it was taken up by any foreign channels. Since then, we've seen a massive shift in viewing patterns with YouTube now reaching more people aged 18-49 than all TV networks combined according to a Nielsen study. In 2010, YT was consumed by 0.8 bn people worldwide, in 2020 the figure was 2.3 bn: https://www.businessofapps.com/data/youtube-statistics/

It's also the second largest search engine now so comparing volume of searches on Google now and 10 years ago needs to be put into context.

The point? Youtube is no longer an alternative to mainstream and just because there are no TV shows, doesn't mean related content isn't reaching people on a large scale. Any horny teenager or young adult now has instant access to a plethora of dating/game advice channels anywhere in the world and yes there are even uploads of old seminars and stuff if you regard that as "the real shit", you don't need to torrent.

Many new channels may not be branded as "pua companies", "pickup advice" or "game" (with the exception of ppl like ToddV -- not that I am fan) and you might argue with the quality of much of the advice, but there was also a lot of shit back in the day that didn't work for me in a sustainable way and caused me to waste time on endless silly cocky back-and-forth banter and too much boring ass non-sexualised comfort building (yeah @Skills, it is fucking boring).

The point is EASE OF ACCESS. I was first made aware of "game stuff" back in the day through friends and acquaintances, nowadays stuff just pops up in your youtube/social media feeds. A lot of it might be crappy advice, but at least it sets you on a journey where if you're really determined you should be able to find stuff that works for you.

But again, as Teevster pointed out, this is all hypothetical. I would expect it to be easier for a young horny guy to learn how to get good with women nowadays but the reality may be a different story with all these counter movements, trends and concepts (mgtow, hypergamy, incels, meetoo, streaming TV, online dating, etc). Not to mention that English-language stuff will have a lesser influence on non English speakers.

I almost stopped reading after seeing the massive usage of words such as "SHOULD". We do not care about hypothetical things here.

Ofc it's hypothetical, speculation. Is there a universal, factual answer to the original question? Without any actual data?

 

[Baron]

The elders just won back the conversation

Not so fast