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Is game harder than it was 10 years ago?

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Baron

Space Monkey
space monkey
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Socializing - Guys in general are shit in game and uncalibrated, my honest observations....

Guys as you know i have been trying to experiment in pulling a 3 some from cold approach, as i go out a lot of the girls get a bit intimidated when i know i have a girl with me, so i told the main go dance and flirt with other dudes, so they don't Autor eject.... I have also seen form women...
www.skilledseducer.com
www.skilledseducer.com
Point taken. Having reflected on this a little, you could be right, it doesn't matter how much material is out there and how easily accessible it is. The number of guys who are actually putting it into action, transforming themselves etc is not significant enough to make game any harder for a seasoned player

Mystery Method - Revisited

Dislcaimer By Teevster: I moved these posts from Karea's thread "Is game harder than it was 10 years ago?". I moved these posts because they covered a whole different subject and those great posts by Karea shouldn't be lost in the sea of posts (was a very active thread). I also felt this is a...
www.skilledseducer.com
www.skilledseducer.com

I read the first few posts but commenting further on mystery or mystery method would derail this thread. I've learnt my lesson from previous threads :)

The problem with a few naturals and anti-gamers that join the community----

Some of This happened to me when i joined the community in fairness i was not as bad as what i am seeing today, so i know what i am talking about (the thing is I would not be as retarded as guys that are rightfully ban from the forum and i was actually open and looking for answers all along...
www.skilledseducer.com
www.skilledseducer.com
Not sure how this relates to my post.
 
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metalbird

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Messages
156
This thread is stuffed with brilliant information, but man, it's depressing to read. As an "ordinary" single guy (and probably right in the site's primary target demographic), I don't really care whether game has gotten easier or harder for the top 1% of professional seducers or what the situation is like in other countries... All I care about is that I, Average Joe, can't get results anymore.

See, that's what made this site such a valuable tool for me (and surely others) in the beginning. It just worked.

Coming fresh out of the vanilla social indoctrination world as a teenager, when I first discovered this site (and PUA), I didn't believe an ounce of it. It was polar opposite to all the "traditional" dating advice I got growing up -- the typical "chivalrous nice guy" attitude many of us millennial men were raised on. In fact, it was only because I was so shocked at the absurdity that I even tried it. I was so sure it wouldn't work, I made a bet with a guy friend that I would try it one night just to prove it was rubbish... And of course, I got a response from the girl I was interested in completely unlike any I had ever experienced prior: Raw sexual attraction.

Throughout most of my twenties, I would always come back to this site when I felt stuck or lost with women, or dating. No matter how much I didn't want to believe some of the perspectives I would find here -- no matter how much I didn't want to try a seemingly "disgusting" or "inappropriate" technique -- no matter how difficult it was for me to accept certain realities about the world -- I found time and time again, that if I applied the information I learned here in good faith, stripped away my emotions, and looked at the cold, hard facts, the results always came back positive.

It just worked.

That was, until about 3 years ago. What changed? Maybe it was just me. Maybe I just got older. Maybe it was any number of other things. But at the end of the day, I now come back to drawing board, seemingly back to square zero, asking the same question I asked a decade ago, when my lay count was less than three:

"How do I get a freaking date with a cute girl, get her to like me, have sex with me, and date me?"

And now, nothing seems to work.

It's really scary, if I'm being honest. Sometimes I wonder if I'm ever going to bang a woman I really find attractive again. If I'll ever have another LTR, a wife, kids... I google "Why can't I get a date" and the results from reddit or wherever are all guys saying things like "I'm 15 years old and still a virgin, what's wrong with me" or "I'm 35, live in my parents basement, never kissed a girl, what do I do". I don't read anything for "intermediate" level (theoretically?!) guys like me with >50 lay count who was laying 7/10 's three years ago, who now can't get ONE date worth going on.

It doesn't help that I look around and suddenly half the women I see are married or single mothers. I'm constantly asking myself, "Did I miss the boat?" And I'm feeling more and more pressure to just bite the bullet and lock down something lest I wind up alone for the next 30 years.

I see this new video content that Chase put out on the site for sale, but frankly, I don't feel much interest in paying to try it, because it still sounds too similar to all of these old, tested, now ineffectual -- for ME -- strategies. I feel like I need another paradigm shift. Another eye-opening revelation like the one this site first offered. Maybe I'm in the failing minority, and my position isn't relevant to the bigger picture. But I doubt it.

That's my two cents.
 

Baron

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
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Messages
97
This thread is stuffed with brilliant information, but man, it's depressing to read. As an "ordinary" single guy (and probably right in the site's primary target demographic), I don't really care whether game has gotten easier or harder for the top 1% of professional seducers or what the situation is like in other countries... All I care about is that I, Average Joe, can't get results anymore.
This is an interesting question. Is it harder for the average Joe in his 20s-30s living in a western society to get laid in 2022 than his counterpart in 2012? If I had to pick a side, I'd go with the "yes" camp due to:

1) growing negative manosphere trends and incidences of incel terrorrism since 2014 (seems to be evidence for "yes")
2) metoo movement = more guys afraid of approaching women
3) more technological distractions (women constantly checking their phones, taking selfies for Instagram, wearing stupid ear devices etc) make it more challenging to get women's attention
4) online game is rigged against the average Joe, seems almost impossible to get decent results unless you've won the genetic lottery
5) wildcards (covid etc)

That's just my assumption as an outsider, I don't belong to that demographic. But if I were a dating coach selling a product, I'd definitely lead with that argument :)

Of course there may be positive societal trends too, e.g. statistically more single women, but I suspect the attractive ones are fucking the same pool of guys.
 
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ulrich

Modern Human
Modern Human
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Messages
1,737
This thread is stuffed with brilliant information, but man, it's depressing to read. As an "ordinary" single guy (and probably right in the site's primary target demographic), I don't really care whether game has gotten easier or harder for the top 1% of professional seducers or what the situation is like in other countries... All I care about is that I, Average Joe, can't get results anymore.

See, that's what made this site such a valuable tool for me (and surely others) in the beginning. It just worked.

Coming fresh out of the vanilla social indoctrination world as a teenager, when I first discovered this site (and PUA), I didn't believe an ounce of it. It was polar opposite to all the "traditional" dating advice I got growing up -- the typical "chivalrous nice guy" attitude many of us millennial men were raised on. In fact, it was only because I was so shocked at the absurdity that I even tried it. I was so sure it wouldn't work, I made a bet with a guy friend that I would try it one night just to prove it was rubbish... And of course, I got a response from the girl I was interested in completely unlike any I had ever experienced prior: Raw sexual attraction.

Throughout most of my twenties, I would always come back to this site when I felt stuck or lost with women, or dating. No matter how much I didn't want to believe some of the perspectives I would find here -- no matter how much I didn't want to try a seemingly "disgusting" or "inappropriate" technique -- no matter how difficult it was for me to accept certain realities about the world -- I found time and time again, that if I applied the information I learned here in good faith, stripped away my emotions, and looked at the cold, hard facts, the results always came back positive.

It just worked.

That was, until about 3 years ago. What changed? Maybe it was just me. Maybe I just got older. Maybe it was any number of other things. But at the end of the day, I now come back to drawing board, seemingly back to square zero, asking the same question I asked a decade ago, when my lay count was less than three:

"How do I get a freaking date with a cute girl, get her to like me, have sex with me, and date me?"

And now, nothing seems to work.

It's really scary, if I'm being honest. Sometimes I wonder if I'm ever going to bang a woman I really find attractive again. If I'll ever have another LTR, a wife, kids... I google "Why can't I get a date" and the results from reddit or wherever are all guys saying things like "I'm 15 years old and still a virgin, what's wrong with me" or "I'm 35, live in my parents basement, never kissed a girl, what do I do". I don't read anything for "intermediate" level (theoretically?!) guys like me with >50 lay count who was laying 7/10 's three years ago, who now can't get ONE date worth going on.

It doesn't help that I look around and suddenly half the women I see are married or single mothers. I'm constantly asking myself, "Did I miss the boat?" And I'm feeling more and more pressure to just bite the bullet and lock down something lest I wind up alone for the next 30 years.

I see this new video content that Chase put out on the site for sale, but frankly, I don't feel much interest in paying to try it, because it still sounds too similar to all of these old, tested, now ineffectual -- for ME -- strategies. I feel like I need another paradigm shift. Another eye-opening revelation like the one this site first offered. Maybe I'm in the failing minority, and my position isn't relevant to the bigger picture. But I doubt it.

That's my two cents.

Lots of contradictions here.
If your lay count is over 50, you’re not an average Joe.

You just being a regular guy and game stopped working for everyone is a limiting story you’re telling yourself.

Here’s a question for you: why most of the women you meet you meet are married or single mothers?
Are you not meeting women in the 20-30 age range?
 

Skills

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
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Messages
4,845
This thread is stuffed with brilliant information, but man, it's depressing to read. As an "ordinary" single guy (and probably right in the site's primary target demographic), I don't really care whether game has gotten easier or harder for the top 1% of professional seducers or what the situation is like in other countries... All I care about is that I, Average Joe, can't get results anymore.

See, that's what made this site such a valuable tool for me (and surely others) in the beginning. It just worked.

Coming fresh out of the vanilla social indoctrination world as a teenager, when I first discovered this site (and PUA), I didn't believe an ounce of it. It was polar opposite to all the "traditional" dating advice I got growing up -- the typical "chivalrous nice guy" attitude many of us millennial men were raised on. In fact, it was only because I was so shocked at the absurdity that I even tried it. I was so sure it wouldn't work, I made a bet with a guy friend that I would try it one night just to prove it was rubbish... And of course, I got a response from the girl I was interested in completely unlike any I had ever experienced prior: Raw sexual attraction.

Throughout most of my twenties, I would always come back to this site when I felt stuck or lost with women, or dating. No matter how much I didn't want to believe some of the perspectives I would find here -- no matter how much I didn't want to try a seemingly "disgusting" or "inappropriate" technique -- no matter how difficult it was for me to accept certain realities about the world -- I found time and time again, that if I applied the information I learned here in good faith, stripped away my emotions, and looked at the cold, hard facts, the results always came back positive.

It just worked.

That was, until about 3 years ago. What changed? Maybe it was just me. Maybe I just got older. Maybe it was any number of other things. But at the end of the day, I now come back to drawing board, seemingly back to square zero, asking the same question I asked a decade ago, when my lay count was less than three:

"How do I get a freaking date with a cute girl, get her to like me, have sex with me, and date me?"

And now, nothing seems to work.

It's really scary, if I'm being honest. Sometimes I wonder if I'm ever going to bang a woman I really find attractive again. If I'll ever have another LTR, a wife, kids... I google "Why can't I get a date" and the results from reddit or wherever are all guys saying things like "I'm 15 years old and still a virgin, what's wrong with me" or "I'm 35, live in my parents basement, never kissed a girl, what do I do". I don't read anything for "intermediate" level (theoretically?!) guys like me with >50 lay count who was laying 7/10 's three years ago, who now can't get ONE date worth going on.

It doesn't help that I look around and suddenly half the women I see are married or single mothers. I'm constantly asking myself, "Did I miss the boat?" And I'm feeling more and more pressure to just bite the bullet and lock down something lest I wind up alone for the next 30 years.

I see this new video content that Chase put out on the site for sale, but frankly, I don't feel much interest in paying to try it, because it still sounds too similar to all of these old, tested, now ineffectual -- for ME -- strategies. I feel like I need another paradigm shift. Another eye-opening revelation like the one this site first offered. Maybe I'm in the failing minority, and my position isn't relevant to the bigger picture. But I doubt it.

That's my two cents.
Though 3 years is about the time were is the post corona era, corona did impacted some dynamics in my opinion, you have to ask to ask yourself some question:

- in those 3 years did your fundaments (looks and fashion) remain the same or went down or you upgraded.

- Your meeting women that are all "with kids and married" is weird... though since you are older yes a lot of the women will be at this point with kids or in a relationship but not ALL... You are making a weird rationalization for your lack of success...

- Have you done some twicking to the things you used to do back then and adapted to todays environment...(field tested different things)
 

Skills

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
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Messages
4,845
This is an interesting question. Is it harder for the average Joe in his 20s-30s living in a western society to get laid in 2022 than his counterpart in 2012? If I had to pick a side, I'd go with the "yes" camp due to:

1) growing negative manosphere trends and incidences of incel terrorrism since 2014 (seems to be evidence for "yes")
2) metoo movement = more guys afraid of approaching women
3) more technological distractions (women constantly checking their phones, taking selfies for Instagram, wearing stupid ear devices etc) make it more challenging to get women's attention
4) online game is rigged against the average Joe, seems almost impossible to get decent results unless you've won the genetic lottery
5) wildcards (covid etc)

That's just my assumption as an outsider, I don't belong to that demographic. But if I were a dating coach selling a product, I'd definitely lead with that argument :)

Of course there may be positive societal trends too, e.g. statistically more single women, but I suspect the attractive ones are fucking the same pool of guys.
here we go again:

1.- This has nothing to do with nothing is a micro small niche... (again this is a projection)
2.- guys are scare to approach due to aa nothing to do with me too.... Me too is an excuse of small niche of black pillers/maybe some red pillers
3.- I agree WAY harder to follow up(i brought up this point)
4.- yes
5.- covid, raise in cost of living (yeah), but recessions and pandemics has been a part of history... (Though is a good point vs 10 years ago, yes this has impacted way more than back 10 years,in 10 years we did have the housing bubble/crash but it not impacted as bad as now covid/housing craziness in usa)
 
you miss 100% of the shots you don't take

DarkKnight

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
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Messages
1,747
@metalbird From 3 to 4 years I hit the end of a streak of succes for whatever reason and figure I need to reinvent myself for whatever demands the time have . Usually works well for me.

You probably need to update something buddy.
 

Baron

Space Monkey
space monkey
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Messages
97
1.- This has nothing to do with nothing is a micro small niche... (again this is a projection)
2.- guys are scare to approach due to aa nothing to do with me too.... Me too is an excuse of small niche of black pillers/maybe some red pillers
1 - These growing trends are (seemingly) evidence that it's getting harder for average Joes to score in western societies. They may be small scale compared with the entire single male population, but it's a growing trend. 10 years ago, guys shooting up a bunch of women because they couldn't get laid was unheard of. Movements for guys who can't get ass didn't exist.

2 - Erm, fear of being accused of sexual harassment (especially in public places)? I should clarify .. I'm not suggesting it's the main reason why guys are scared to approach, that would be dumb. Approach anxiety has always existed. I'm saying it might amplify that fear for many guys.

Again, these are just assumptions, I'm not in the demographic I described, it would be better to hear from "average Joes" who live in western countries, especially USA, UK, Canada.
 
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Skills

Tribal Elder
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1 - These growing trends are (seemingly) evidence that it's getting harder for average Joes to score in western societies. They may be small scale compared with the entire single male population, but it's a growing trend. 10 years ago, guys shooting up a bunch of women because they couldn't get laid was unheard of. Movements for guys who can't get ass didn't exist.

2 - Erm, fear of being accused of sexual harassment (especially in public places)? I should clarify .. I'm not suggesting it's the main reason why guys are scared to approach, that would be dumb. Approach anxiety has always existed. I'm saying it might amplify that fear for many guys.

Again, these are just assumptions, I'm not in the demographic I described, it would be better to hear from "average Joes" who live in western countries, especially USA, UK, Canada.


1.- I would agree the trend is growing, for example the guys that used to be in the seduction community have gone more to black pill/red pill/incel movements, this i will grant you.... The rest of "didn't exist is false and the same with the shooting" we had puahate, and the shooting in usa has always been going on... (we are too the point numb to it).

2.-Again this has not been amplified, is being used as an excuse. I will give you that in some places is not allowed cold approach (it seems some parts of Europe, i heard janka said that you can not cold approach in trains in England, i think you are from england, this is not the case USA or latin america, may be geographical in nature).

^ i interact every day with average joes in usa, so i am telling you is highly exaggerated since you are focusing and interacting with a niche (us)...

Bro we agree game is harder than 10 years ago SPECIALLY, for the average joe, they are totally fucked, in part due to technology, covid, economic stuff..., i do agree with most of what you are saying, but i am just telling you a lot of your points are a bit buggie man stuff(highly speculative), is not real, and it steams from manosphere content, which is designed for buggie man exaggerations (not all your points, some that i pointed).... Anyways guys, this is get too redundant and depressing less focus on SOLUTIONS, i can tell you, if you put effort you can still get laid like a Rockstar, but again requires way more effort than 10 years ago, effort meaning troubleshooting what works after extensive field testing like crazy, once you find easy peachy (finding that angle is a lot work vs back then).....
 

Baron

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The rest of "didn't exist is false and the same with the shooting" we had puahate, and the shooting in usa has always been going on... (we are too the point numb to it).
I haven't done the research but I'm pretty sure the statistics don't agree with you. Yeah, there was puahate but the first incel mass shooting that I heard of was in 2014 (E. roger). After that, there have been other instances of incel related mass violence, not only in the USA. There was that incel in Canada who ran over a bunch of people with his truck, there was even an incel mass shooting in the UK last year, etc. etc. Before 2014, you might hear about some Ted Bundy type serial killer from time to time, but not incel related mass violence. This isn't even a debate.

Again this has not been amplified, is being used as an excuse.
Yeah, this makes sense, anything can be used to rationalise not taking action.

i heard janka said that you can not cold approach in trains in England, i think you are from england, this is not the case USA or latin america, may be geographical in nature).
I haven't heard this, but I've been outside the UK for many years. I also heard somewhere that you're not allowed to do cold approach in some shopping centres/malls in Canada. I assumed things were bad in the States too, but I'll take your word for it that they're not.
 

trashKENNUT

Cro-Magnon Man
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1.- This has nothing to do with nothing is a micro small niche... (again this is a projection)

@Chase

Skills is correct about this particular thing that he has been passively noting for the year. That thing is Projection.

Have you look into it? And maybe some science on it. I'm curious to hear directly from you.

Sidenote:
I see this anger response on social media and it's fucking amazing. Projection. Or my terminology for this is 'Completing states'.

It's amazing. I'm fascinated by it.

z@c+
 

Karea Ricardus D.

Tribal Elder
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@metalbird, your post is interesting because you have some knowledge of old-school game, and you used to get results, over 50 lays isn't too shabby. Now zero... big change.

Of the 50 may I ask roughly, how many from

- online / apps
- social circle
- cold approach day
- cold approach night?

Second, are you doing exactly the same thing now?

And third question: did you do a lot of direct game before? I'm asking because direct street stops, like the apps, have become kinda saturated. It was almost a bit of a loophole before.
 

DonGately

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'I didn't hear of incels killing anyone before 2014 so it didn't happen.'

Ok bro.

The guy who shoots up his ex-wife and everyone else in her house incl her/their kids, her mom/sisters and friends? Those dudes were probably now incel. He reacted that way because he was no longer getting laid, turned violent and took it out on her and everyone nearby. And often himself.

That kinda dude has been around longer than you've been alive, trust me.

Within walking distance from me, a 35yr guy some in a prior decade killed his ex-wife, 5 others, a teenage boy [not his or hers] in multiple locations; and then himself the next day in the woods. And this was in normal, vanilla, white suburban towns.

The media didn't portray these as incel killings in the past because the term didn't exist and the assumed a guy who'd been married and fathered kids could still get some.
 

trashKENNUT

Cro-Magnon Man
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@metalbird, you should still be targeting 20-26yr olds. If half of them are married/pregnant or have kids, find new circles.

best,

Maybe the community there is having a revolt against PUA.

Thus everyone is getting pregnant! O.O

z@c+
 

Baron

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'I didn't hear of incels killing anyone before 2014 so it didn't happen.'

Ok bro.

The guy who shoots up his ex-wife and everyone else in her house incl her/their kids, her mom/sisters and friends? Those dudes were probably now incel. He reacted that way because he was no longer getting laid, turned violent and took it out on her and everyone nearby. And often himself.

That kinda dude has been around longer than you've been alive, trust me.

Within walking distance from me, a 35yr guy some in a prior decade killed his ex-wife, 5 others, a teenage boy [not his or hers] in multiple locations; and then himself the next day in the woods. And this was in normal, vanilla, white suburban towns.

The media didn't portray these as incel killings in the past because the term didn't exist and the assumed a guy who'd been married and fathered kids could still get some
Good point about the media, but I didn't say it didn't happen, just saying mass shootings/killings of an incel nature probably weren't happening with the same frequency as in this past decade. The fact that you came up with two unreferenced examples, one "in a prior decade".... I don't know the details of the incident but the fact that he killed his ex wife, a woman he obviously did get laid with in the past, seems to point to an issue with a specific woman (even if fuelled by sexual frustration) rather than women as a whole.
 

Michal

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Ofc it's hypothetical, speculation. Is there a universal, factual answer to the original question? Without any actual data?

The below is what I could think of in terms of data.
I am sure most of you have seen this chart. I do not remember what was the method of gathering the data. But still, it indicates something.
7nz5gx2qqts81.jpg
 

Baron

Space Monkey
space monkey
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The below is what I could think of in terms of data.
I am sure most of you have seen this chart. I do not remember what was the method of gathering the data. But still, it indicates something.
7nz5gx2qqts81.jpg
The original question has been interpreted in different ways throughout this thread, e.g. Is game harder for a seasoned player? or Is it getting harder for the average Joe to get laid? Assuming the data gathering process wasn't skewed, it certain supports the fact that it's getting harder for the average Joe.
 

ulrich

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The original question has been interpreted in different ways throughout this thread, e.g. Is game harder for a seasoned player? or Is it getting harder for the average Joe to get laid? Assuming the data gathering process wasn't skewed, it certain supports the fact that it's getting harder for the average Joe.
I agree.

I would venture to say that just as economy has been getting polarized (the rich get richer, the poor get poorer) so has the dating market… the skilled get more lays, the unskilled less and less.
 

Warped Mindless

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The original question has been interpreted in different ways throughout this thread, e.g. Is game harder for a seasoned player? or Is it getting harder for the average Joe to get laid? Assuming the data gathering process wasn't skewed, it certain supports the fact that it's getting harder for the average Joe.
Getting laid has always been hard for average people. Thankfully modern males are getting lamer and lamer every generation. Smoke weed and play video games are all they care about. Pretty easy to make yourself above average when the guys your competing against aren’t even trying.
 
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