Passion Lab

[kristian]

Re: backstory's frontstory

If a girl gives you a compliment I think it's just best to say "thank you " and move on. Saying "you are very forward" does hurt your attainability even if you follow that up "I like that about you". Imagine a girl telling you that, you would be pleased perhaps but would you also think that maybe you *are* being very forward. Next time you wanted to compliment her or show interest again you would think twice, no? For girls this (not being seen as forward) is much more important.

Eye-opening, thank you!

 

[fog]

Re: songbird fog talks about women

kristian and mrre,

thanks for the insights.

I don't think btw that this situation is unsalvagable. Let's see if she replies

She hasn't gotten back to me. What do you think I should do?

 

[Sandman]

Re: songbird fog talks about women

kristian and mrre,

thanks for the insights.

I don't think btw that this situation is unsalvagable. Let's see if she replies

She hasn't gotten back to me. What do you think I should do?

You are welcome

Tough question. I would send her one more text regarding the plans to meet up. But if she doesn't reply or evades setting up a date delete her number.

It might be a better strategy to just wait for her to iniate especially if there's already a dynamic in place where she texts you more often because of congruence. But her attainability might be low already so I'd go with the first option.

But I'm usually an all or nothing guy. So I just don't care for the chance for her initiating text. I'd rather know if it's happening or not. Chased a few evasive girls for a date (as in time) in the past. Not fun.

 

[fog]

Re: songbird fog talks about women

A Conversation I'm Proud Of

I met a girl on tinder, and the conversation went extremely well. Here it is:

fog: City Name 1 girl?
athena: just for school! i live in City 2 full time
fog: that’s odd. i know what City Name 1 girls are like
athena: haha oh yeah? smart, funny, and beautiful?
fog: only 2 out of the 3
fog: you probably have a good idea of what the two are
athena: smart and funny?
fog: wow athena…calling City Name 1 girls ugly…so cold, so cold
athena: ahah nah just this one
fog: someone has got to take one for the team right?
athena: exactly! thank you
fog: what do you like to cook? I’m really curious, I’m making my grocery list for tomorrow atm (in her tinder profile it says she likes to cook)
athena: well yesterday i had home made turkey soup and that was super tasty but you need a whole carcass from a roasted turkey to do that
fog: that sounds pretty tasty right now because I’m vegan so i dont eat meat </3
fog: where on earth did you find a whole turkey though? are you hiding something from me...
athena: haha oh shoot. yeah that wouldn't be very yummy for you then. i cooked thanksgiving dinner for my friends and had saved the bones to make soup with
fog: wow ok i thought you were a hunter who drinks lots of beer with old men and shoots animals
athena: no, i actually disagree with most hunting practises and have been trying to transition into becoming a vegetarian
athena: it just seems wasteful to throw away the bones when they could be used
fog: yea, that’s pretty resourceful of you. how are things on your journey to becoming a vegetarian? it can be tough at first! i know a lot of people say they could never quit meat
athena: its really hard, because i don’t dislike the taste. but i am doing pretty good so far. i usually only eat meat 3-4 times a week now. and i avoid buying it. i am becoming very good at making indian food.
fog: indian food!?? you cant be serious!
athena: yes, i have perfected the ideal gravy - garlic, onion, green chillies, tomato and oil
fog: you are making me hungry athena
athena: i know my food i make a mean vegan eggplant parmesan as well.
fog: uh hellooo i definitely wanna taste that. we should get together sometime do some cooking or something.
athena: definitely, i love to cook. my apartment is small but it has a functional kitchen
fog: niceee. do you have a functional cell phone? text me and we can sort some plans out xxx-xxx-xxx. (I used the word functional to make my compliance test seem related and not random. sort of like a call back almost)

My phone buzzes and I get a text:

athena: proof that i have a functional cell phone! Ps its athena.
fog: hi atheeno

At this point i wasn’t really sure what to say… should i continue with the cooking thread, try to sort plans out, or switch to a completely new thread to build more rapport then sort plans out? I was thinking I needed to build some more rapport. If I didn’t do that, she’d probably forget about me while she was in Florida. I decided to go with a warm read. In her profile it said she likes to try new things..so I said this:

fog: i feel as though you are quite an open minded person.
athena: hello! and yes, i tend to be.
fog: is it a personal choice or have you always been that way? why do you think you are open minded?
athena: i think it is partially to do with how i was raised and partially a choice. i make an effort to expand my mind and consider all sides to an argument. which in turn makes you more open and willing to accept peoples opinions and views.
fog: so what you’re saying is that you take the bigger picture into account which makes you more adaptable to the perceptions of other people?
athena: exactly not everything is so right or wrong. its multifaceted.

I find that when I use active listening properly, a common response from girls is “exactly.”

fog: no kidding… i feel like a lot of people fall into this trap of thinking and perceiving everything in a black or white way, which is so limiting isn’t it?
athena: it really is and i find it leads to a lot of judgement from people who claim to be “open” but really just have more liberal ideals and think everything else is wrong.
fog: ive met people like that before. they are not fun to be around.
fog: whats your schedule like for the rest of the week?
athena: i am completely booked. i am leaving for florida on thursday. but next week i am available on tuesday night and wednesday night.
fog: florida is a lot of fun. ok how about we aim to get together tuesday night
athena: awesome! i am pretty excited. i am going to disney world for the first time
fog: haha, be careful there. what are you looking forward to the most about disney world?
athena: i love roller coasters so I’m pumped to spend 5 days riding them.

This is the perfect time to break out a pattern I like to use sometimes:

fog: SOMEONE is an adrenaline junkie
athena: yup, i love it. the feeling just before you drop is awesome
fog: yeah i know…theres that awesome buildup of anticipation going up the tracks. your heart starts beating faster, your breathing starts to come faster and faster…you just get more and more excited.
athena: and then the rush you feel. its awesome.
fog: a friend and i were talking about that specific feeling a while back and she compared it to feeling similar to an orgasm.

No response after a string of consistent replies. Huh, weird. She doesn’t get back to me until two days later. I think the late reply was a test due to my sexual comment:

athena: that is an understatement. my orgasms are way better than a roller coaster.

It's a great transition into sex talk, but that’s where the conversation ends. She’s in florida right now so I’m gonna wait until closer to tuesday to get ahold of her.

This was a really good conversation though….little bit of banter/lightheartedness (she didn't seem to be into it though, so i didnt push it), asking her to hang out came at the right time, i made the decision to build extra rapport and did it well, i used a pattern and introduced some tension into the conversation with the orgasm comment. I’ll let you guys know if this goes anywhere. Even if it doesn't, I learned some stuff. For some reason this girl is giving me vibes that other sexually open girls have given me before.

 

[fog]

Re: songbird fog talks about women

My Biggest Sticking Point

Last night I was at a party. I did have a good time, but when I got home I felt an overwhelming sense of disappointment.

The disappointment I felt was due to a sticking point that I know I've had for a while, but haven't done anything to fix it quite yet.

The sticking point I am talking about is mid-game. I am doing well early.. touch, banter, chase frames, basic stuff like that at the start of the interaction. But mid game, when the attraction is solid and it's time to escalate to bigger things, like moving and isolating girls, building comfort, upping my kino....this is where I am seriously lacking in experience. It pisses me off. Why is this happening? I realize it's all due to my mindset.

When a girl shows interest, I downplay it in my head as no big deal which I’m sure comes across as un-needy, which is great. But at the same time, its resulting in missed opportunities, because I feel like the girl isn't interested in me when she obviously is.

So I'm gonna set some ground rules that I can follow to make sure I can get past this sticking point while still maintaining this un-needy vibe/mindset. I know HOW to do it, I have all the tools to succeed, so this will be an easy sticking point to get past if I follow these basic rules:

Girl is into my banter -> Move her somewhere, switch into rapport building
Girl is staring at me, refusing to break eye contact -> increase kino, invite her home
Talking for more than 5 minutes -> Move her somewhere
Target isn't interested, but friend is -> Switch attention to friend
Girl who is interested in you is glued to her friend -> Isolate

The Party

As I mentioned, it was a good time. It's been a while since I been out, so I wasn't surprised to notice the return of an old friend: approach anxiety. Everytime I get approach anxiety, I alter my thought patterns and think this: this is not the feeling of nervousness, this is the feeling of anticipation.

This is how I kickstart social momentum really quickly. I've analyzed my mindsets when I had social momentum, and I found that I am excited to meet new people in this state. not nervous.

I was wearing black skinny jeans, blue doc martens, a long baggy retro white casino sweater and a long neon turquoise splash jacket/parka. Girls reacted to this a lot.

I open this one girl, and she goes into auto rejection and starts being rude because I "look like I'm from the 80s." What? That's usually something someone would like. Realized I was unattainable to her, she just needed a reason to make it logical for her.

I go to walk outside, I see these two girls steal a glance at me. I open them, I can't remember what I said. Girl 1 starts touching me first. Anyways, they start calling me "dad" because I "look like I'm from the 80s." (Definitely found a good 80s look, I'm happy about this) This is great. I immediately start a role play where I am the dad and they are my misbehaving daughters. They love it. I love it too because this role play automatically makes me an authority figure as long as I hold my frames. Girl 2 gets distracted by some cockblocks for a second. Girl 1 isn't doing anything so I take advantage of the interruption to talk to her, but I hit a vocal fumble and don't know what to say. Anyways, this dude interrupts:

cockblock: hey dude leave these girls alone, stop giving them a hard time, they are just trying to have a good night
fog: nah bro its the other way around, they are giving ME a hard time! my daughters are begging me to make them supper after ive had a long day at work.
girls: *giggling*
girls 1: i like him!
girl 2: i hate him
girl 1: lets get a picture with him.

So they give their phone to the cockblock, and he's setting up to take a picture. I say to the girls:

fog: kisses now.
girls: *both kissing my cheeks*
cockblock: ok i got the picture
girl 2: what should i caption it? (it was for snapchat)
girl 1: we saw dad at the party

I thought this was hilarious because the cockblock tried to put me in a negative frame, but I reversed the frame effectively while using the role play to make him look like an idiot and to build an us vs the world vibe with the girls. Then he had to take a picture of me with the girls kissing me.

Anyways, after this I didn't really know what to say or do. This would have been a perfect time to escalate more, but...I just walked away. Later on I see the girls as they're walking by. They give me more cheek kisses and run off.

Later later on, I'm talking to them and they ask me for my name:

Girl 1: what's your name?
fog: songbird fog
Girl 2: ew that's a gross name
Girl 1: ya i really don't like that name

Simple test here, I didn't say anything and just ignored it.

LATER LATER on, I'm sitting on a very comfy 1 seater chair. The girls come up to me. One is sitting on the arm of the chair, the other is standing up. They are talking with each other, then they start talking to me. I pull Girl 1 off the arm to sit in my lap. She sort of just falls into this awkward position, she's like laying on me. She gets off, and then the girls are asking me to take a picture of them:

Girl 2: hey will you take a picture of us?
fog: no
Girl 2: come on!!!! pleaseeeee
fog: go find someone else to take your picture.

Girl 1 (the one who's interested in me), plants herself on her knees by the arm of the chair and starts staring at me. She's giving her best begging look to convince her dad to take the picture. This staring contest goes on for ages. Man, what a great opportunity to escalate or use a chase frame OR SOMETHING..... she'd already initiated touching me, she'd kissed my cheek a few times, now she's staring at me...SHE'S OBVIOUSLY INTERESTED....yet I DIDN'T DO ANYTHING! All I did was hold her hand briefly, which is early game stuff. Could have been an easy lay with some isolation and a tiny bit of rapport building.

Besides that, I was getting some blatantly obvious AIs from some hot as fuck girls that I felt were out of my league. I didn't approach though, that's the next mindset fix I'm planning on working on. I'm scared of the hot girls, I believe I don't deserve them and don't have what it takes to compete for them. Thing is, I've been working on my fundamentals and vibe for ages now and feel like they're getting pretty solid, so this mindset is invalid.

 

[fog]

Re: songbird fog talks about women

My sex drive has been MIA ever since I started dieting to lower my body fat % 3-4 months ago now. I feel pretty lethargic all the time. However, the moment I started pushing myself 10x as hard in the gym is the moment my sex drive started coming back.

I started cold approaching again. I'm easing back into it and not putting in a lot of effort. Doing a bunch of small talk and stuff, not trying to make anything happen. It feels so right, natural and easy to be doing it. I believe that I feel this way because of my increased testosterone.

Been working on my mindsets lately as well:

1. I think to myself every day, "all girls are advancing on me for sex." This is already changing the way I behave towards women. It's very similar to the "assume attraction" mindset recommended by GC, but I feel like this mindset is more specific and works a little bit better for me.

2. In the past I never took status into account. I didn't have a solid strategy to establish myself as the higher status person in my interactions, and left it up to chance. So now I am operating under the mindset of, "I am higher status than every girl." Just like the first mindset change i mentioned, this is changing the way I act around women. Obviously this mindset won't do it all for me though, there's still work to be done on my fundamentals and game.I am eager to be intimidating.

I'm pretty interested in learning how to manipulate girls. Ideally, I would know exactly where the interaction is headed, and how to make the girl act and feel a certain way for my own benefit. For example it would be pretty cool to know how to get a girl to brag about herself. Then I would take her down a notch. i guess this is a lot of what seduction is about, and this would come with experience. I've sorta been studying the dark triad.

Every time I make and hold eye contact with random girls on the street (which is happening more often and for longer amounts of time lately it seems. maybe due to the fact that I am being more bold?), I never look away first. I am overwhelmingly confident that I will not look away first. I used to be sort of nervous that she would find me creepy or it would feel awkward for me and as a result I would doubt myself. Now I don't give a shit. I'm also not afraid to stare at girls who aren't looking at me. If they catch me, who cares... i am not embarrassed about my sexual intentions and I'll do what I want.

One last thing: I stopped using deodorant over the summer, but a few months ago I stopped using soap all together as well.

 

[fog]

Re: songbird fog talks about women

Hi friends, been a while.

I’ve known this girl called Rachel for a few years now. We have each other on facebook, but never met in person. A few years back we made plans for her to come over to my place. BUT...I ditched her. We remained in contact, talking occasionally. A few months ago I started talking to her again, wanting to make some plans with her. She was playing games...being all wishy washy. You know, giving me “maybes” and stuff like that and being suspicious about my intentions. Looking back, I was borderline chasing her/being a little needy. I gave up and we fell out of contact again.

The other day, she messages me on facebook out of the blue and says to me, “I saw you the other day.” Girls say this stuff for a reason! I knew she liked what she saw and wanted to hang, but I wasn’t about to be the first one to ask. Instead I wanted to experiment and see if I could get HER to ask ME to hang out. I was dropping hints, but it wasn’t working, so I said, “let’s hang.” She said she was down, and we continued making plans:

rach: what do you wanna do?
fog: good question
rach: hahaha
fog: we could get smashed off some coffee and watch old cartoons
rach: lol do you drink wine
fog: ya
rach: wines always a fun time
fog: split a bottle with me
rach: maybe i will
rach: where do you live

She’s making things real easy by suggesting we do something more PG-13 and inviting herself over to my house.

The next night a very testy Rach is in my room with me. We are clicking really well, and in no time at all we can’t keep our hands off each other.

However, it seems she put me in the boyfriend zone right away. She was:

1. talking about us hanging out again in the future
2. cuddling me
3. giving me strong resistance (wouldn’t let me take off her shirt and pants)

This is similar behaviour to several other girls I’ve been with who have dumped me into the boyfriend zone quickly. In the past, I have scared these girls off by acting like a fuckboy. I would try to rush them and be a little too mysterious. Last night made me realize that I’ve likely been dealing with tests from these girls wrong as well. I realize that tests are a little different when youre dealing with a girl who has you in the boyfriend zone vs a girl who just wants to bang.

I realized this while I was with Rach, so I was having a hard time trying to answer her tests quickly and cleverly on the fly. On top of that, she also threw me some tests I had never heard before.

For example, she asked,

Rach: When was the last time you slept with a girl?
Fog: You’re the first girl I’ve ever talked to.

My goodness, I’ve never gotten that one before. I've been asked how many girls I’ve slept with before, but never this one. Of course I evaded the question but she was very persistent and pestered me for a real answer. Eventually she asked if she was annoying me. I said yes and she didn’t bring it up again. Maybe honesty would have been the best policy here, and with the other tests I got from her:

Rach: Did you know we were gonna end up hooking up?
Fog: No

Rach Why did you invite me over to your house?
Fog: I didn’t, you invited yourself over.

She didn’t believe me, but quickly agreed after she looked back in our chat.

Rach: Why did you want to hang out with me?
Fog: Well, I ditched you so long ago and I had to make up for it. Gotta finish what you start. I guess things have come full circle.
Rach: Does this mean it’s the end? Like we aren’t going to hang out again?
Fog: nah, we’ll chill again. Why’d you wanna hang out with me?
Rach: When we were talking on facebook, I thought you were intriguing and wanted to see if you were just as intriguing in person

All sorts of questions about my motivations and intentions. I made sure to include chase frames in my answers, and I also played dumb.

We were talking about sex playlists, and she interpreted what I said as me being a fuckboy. She said it worried her that I might be a manwhore. UGH. I can’t remember exactly what I said, I think I said something like “I used to be a player but not anymore."

I will be doing some research into the best ways to deal with tests from girls who want you as a boyfriend.

Attainability

I was being quite challenging early on - this was a mistake. My attainability was perfect to begin with, so being a challenge made my attainability get a little bit too low. Later on, whenever I started complimenting and expressing interest in her, she would have a very relieved look on her face - no doubt because my attainability went up when I did this.

I did imply that she was a bitch for some of her overly rude tests - probably dont want to do this at all in the future. It definitely impacted my attainability negatively in this situation. And although her tests didnt affect my emotions, implying she was a bitch might have shown her that they did impact my emotions.

"What Are You Thinking?”

Whenever I would smile or something, she would hound me with the question, “what are you thinking?” A lot of the time, I would say, “nothing” (which was true, my mind was pretty blank). Or I would refuse to tell her. I don’t have to reveal my thoughts all the time. Sometimes I would tell her what was on my mind though.

I asked her why she kept asking me this question. She said I always had a thoughtful look on my face that made her curious.

This isn’t the first girl who hounded me with this question while we were together. It happened with another girl who also put me in the boyfriend zone. I refused to tell her at all, and I never saw her again. Likely because something about it gave her fuckboy vibes.

Positive Behavior Reinforcement

I did make sure to use positive behaviour reinforcement like giving her kisses and more touch when she complimented me and said nice things like how she was happy being around me.

The Aftermath

She wanted to sleep over but I didn’t let her. I texted her earlier today:

Fog: yesterday was sooo much fun
Rach: it was, I like hanging out with you

And just now she texted me again:

Rach: do you wanna see me again?

I learned a lot from all this, and I'm interested to see where it goes. I wouldn't mind dating her.

 

[kristian]

Re: songbird fog talks about women

However, it seems she put me in the boyfriend zone right away. She was:

1. talking about us hanging out again in the future
2. cuddling me
3. giving me strong resistance (wouldn’t let me take off her shirt and pants)

It's an interesting thing in the seduction community, the compatibility vs skill debate.

What if you did everything right in a seduction sense, but she had other plans right before she met you and she wasn't going to change that no matter what?

From what I've seen in my seductions, the girls I managed to get home and into my bed where very clear non-verbally that they wanted to be seduced, right from the outset. All I had to do was to lead them to the bedroom and show them I wanted them (attainability).

The ones I couldn't seduce has been those who objected from the start. I might have been very clear in my intentions just to find out, she has another man in her life (and we know women that cheat more often are in a relationship that is dead) or that we misunderstood each other.

How do I know this? Every time I see that she won't comply with my sexual advances (I give her several chances of course) I use the following line.

Me: You seem like a cute and interesting person, Gina. And I really like you both physically and sexually. I just don't know if this is mutual. Is it? Or are we wasting our time here? (followed by silence).

The "I just don't know if this is mutual" is important to say. Because one-third of the girls I've said this to actually tell me they like me back, but aren't used to moving THAT fast or have other objections (want to know you're not a player). Usually, all they need is a little more deep diving to justify to themselves that is "safe" to have sex with you or not feel slutty (we don't know everything that's going on their minds).

But other times, it's just that the girl is strong willed and have firm ideas about what she wants to do with you. Just as we do.

I also read somewhere here about stats and the really good seducers have between 50 to 80 percent success rate to seduce in the first date. Even Chase wrote something about "not seeing girls" again if he wasn't able to seduce on the first date. By that line alone, we all know he doesn't seduce every woman he meets up with.

I believe part of their success has a lot to do with finding sexually available girls that are DTF. Its all about screening and then moving forward, which makes sense. Some women are just not looking for that when they meet you. But are intrigued enough.

A long rant here, haha. But try out the "Is it mutual?" line next time. Youll get quite interesting answers and amazing feedback.


----

And nice to see you back here man!!

 

[fog]

Re: songbird fog talks about women

Daygame & Flirting

Yeaah I started day gaming again the other day. Feels really good, even though i’m a tad rusty. In general I’m feeling very confident in my banter and deep diving. But I came to a realization the other day that I’m not a great flirt. I can flirt non-verbally by doing lip looks and holding strong eye contact, but that’s some basic ass shit. I wanna be able to take girls for a ride with both verbal and non-verbal flirting.

Roissy has a great flirting strategy that he taught, and it was rehashed by Chase in one of his email newsletters. The concept is that you express interest in one way (like verbally) but express disinterest in another way (like nonverbally). And the reason why it’s flirting is because you’re basically giving off mixed signals.

I’ve been starting experimenting with all this…mostly mixed signal verbal flirting so far. I’ve been getting myself into a little bit of trouble too, lol, like here’s an example from today:

Me: I’m attracted to you but youre not my type
Girl: why do you say I’m not your type?
Me: …uhhhhh

I honestly forget what I said, but it was not that great and ruined my attainability. Shoulda said something like “Well I’m not sure if we are gonna have chemistry but I think we should keep talking and find out”

Should have this skill sharpened up nicely by the time I’m finished talking to the next 250 girls. I’m really excited for an opportunity to go up to a girl who’s giving me AIs, tell her, “I want to go to bed with you.” Then give her a skeptical look and walk away.

New Technique - Sticky Eyes

I read about this technique called “Sticky Eyes” on reddit and immediately incorporated it into my game. I gotta field test it some more before I understand the full effects of it…right now though, it’s got my eye contact seeming a lot more seductive. Here’s how the guy described it on reddit:

When you must break eye contact, try to do so as slowly as possible. You look away, but it takes 2-3 seconds to not be eye-to-eye anymore. You start turning your head first, leting your eyes linger and then slowly moving them away. This will melt girls. It makes them feel incredibly desired and I’ve had girls comment that this was the reason they fucked me. It also serves to build tension without risking creepy as much, because you aren’t just staring at bitches like an axe murderer sizing up their neck. The writer I heard it from referred to it as having honey connecting your eyes, so it makes them move slowly apart.

Push & Pull on a Random Tinder Broad

I met this girl on Tinder..established myself as the one in charge, found out her sexual preferences, and did some serious deep diving with her. Throughout this I’ve asked her to hang out twice. Both times were after SHE turned the conversation sexual. But she keeps ignoring it. Whatever, I’m not gonna ask her again. For now at least. Sometimes it’s just a matter of building more rapport.

After the deep diving, she was hooked as heck but she mentioned she was on her period. That just annoyed me. I ignored her for a day. Then she messages me:

Tinder Broad: done with me already?

AHAHHAHAHA. I was debating what to say. Should I pull out a chase frame here? What is my attainability like? I put myself in her shoes. She’s probably thinking… "me and this guy just connected….why is he ignoring me? does he still like me? was it something i said?” In other words she might be encountering a bunch of uncertainty.

My ignoring of her was a push causing uncertainty, so I could do a pull that would cause her to be more certain of me…So I was thinking about saying:

fog: we’re just getting started

or

fog: I’m just getting started with you

I ended up going with the former option. Because I liked the “we” aspect of it and felt it was attainable. “I’m just getting started with you” was good too, but it was more about establishing me as the leader (which I feel I’ve already done) and wasn’t that warm sounding.

 

[fog]

Re: songbird fog talks about women

Rachel is Baaack

Rach had been liking every single facebook status I posted...

I also got her on snap. I knew she’d be watching my stories so I posted some shit that I KNEW would provide value to her. And well then she texted me:

Rach: hi
Rach: r u on drugs
fog: *laughing emoticon*
Rach: haha no seriously *laughing emoticon*
fog: nope *thinking emoticon*
Rach: ur funny
Rach: i am quite entertained by those snaps
fog: i am glad you like my sober shenanigans rachel
Rach: i do fog
Rach: i enjoy them very much

Notice how she's mirroring me. interesting. I’m not really sure if I should ask her to hang out or not…I saw one of hectors texting videos where he said something like “the previous situation doesn’t matter, all that matters is now.” he also said "don't fuck around over texting." I was acting chasey before, so I think it's important to just be cool for now. I will have a good sleep on it. I believe my next move would be to casually ask her what she's up to this week. Flirting more is a bad idea - that would constitute fucking around, and that's what got me in trouble before.

Congratulations! Here is Your Ticket to the Boyfriend Zone!

I am renaming Random Tinder Broad to Roller. After her comment “Done with me already?”, we chatted on the phone. It went on a little too long for my liking, it lasted about 30 minutes. However I don’t mind….it was basically her just chatting my ear off and qualifying herself to me.

We didn’t talk for two days afterwards. Then, tonight I get a message from her:

Roller: I was expecting a message or two by now

Wow! So straightforward. It is clear to me I am in the boyfriend zone and that she wants me to give her some comfort. What I am going to do is tell her I think we should have another phone call. During that phone call my goal is to build some rapport and ask her to hang out. No fuckboy shit. It’s so easy!!!

I Am Going Below The Speed Limit

Hung out with two girls this weekend. One was from daygame (she came straight to my house), one was a girl I had already known before (i went to her house). I made moves on both of them, but they weren’t well received. In fact, they got really grumpy afterwards. I won’t get into details - I take it as a sign they were in auto rejection because I moved too slow (20-45 minutes), and was making the move after they got into auto rejection. I’m embarrassed to admit my uncalibration, but I’m not really disappointed as I’m preeeettttyyyy sure I’m operating from partial abundance. I’m not needy at all and know there’s more girls around the corner. ANYWAYS, the moral of the story here? From now on, whenever a girl is in a room with me, she gets kissed in 10 minutes or less. The ever skillful Hue mentioned in his journal that it should be 5 minutes. Something like that. But yeah. 10 minutes from now on. I’ll try that out.

 

[fog]

Re: songbird fog talks about women

Rachel Came Over Tonight

I didn’t text Rachel back after she told me how much she liked my sober shenanigans. Today, she sends me a selfie of her. Then, I get a text from her.

Rach: I saw you

What I ended up finding out was that she saw me daygaming at the school. I was working on this black girl who had previously been looking at me like I was a piece of meat. She was giving me an awfully hard time. Wouldn’t let me take down her number….refused to make plans with me…And then I was like…

fog: wait….you’re single right…?
Girl: no i have a boyfriend.

That explained some things. After that I kept pushing for a close, but she was having none of it! In fact, her body language started to get negative. I mirrored it. When I got the text from Rachel, I was unsure of the part that she saw. Did she see me and the black girl having negative body language towards each other? Or did she see it at the start, when the body language was good? This situation could have been good preselection.

So anyways, after Rach texts me that she saw me, I knew I hadda ask her to hang out:

Rach: i saw you
fog: nice
fog: what are you up to this week
Rach: blablablabla
Rach: what about yourself
fog: sick i got some things planned
fog: I’m thinking we need to get together sometime soon
Rach: when would you like to
Rach: i could maybe come hangout after this class if youre free
fog: what time is that at, 6pm?
Rach: yes
fog: hmmm yea i can make that work
Rach: busy guy eh
fog: I will see you around 6 rach
Rach: ok i will walk over i cant stay long though

She made it really easy. And she’s saying she can’t stay long. Well that was fine with me because I was excited to implement my new 10 minute rule. But I was a little worried, because I was not very horny, and I was placing a ton of pressure on myself to bang her. Because I felt like it was a do or die situation.

Shortly before 6 she walks into my house and plops herself on my couch. She starts telling me she saw me talking to the black girl. She wonders who it was. I tell her it’s a friend of a friend. A mutual friend! Well then she starts talking about the friends she was with when she saw me. She said her friends said they knew me because they met me at a party, and got a picture with me where they were both kissing my cheeks. I am more than happy about the preselection.

For anyone interested, here is the field report from that party: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11327&start=200#p87691

Yes, rach and i were kissing within 10 minutes. Did I bang her? Nooooo….but I sure as heck did get further than last time. She was giving me a lot of resistance, but I kept pushing, and man WAS I SAVAGE AS HECK. i ordered her around and got her to do whatever i wanted. She was complaining how aggressive I was. But she didn’t complain when I flipped her on her belly, spanked her a bunch, ate her ass, stuck some fingers in her pussy and licked her clit.

I’m curious as to what she expected to happen when she came over. When I first started paying attention to her pussy, she didn’t seem wet at all. And while she was giving me resistance, she kept texting her mom. and she was texting her friend too, because she was finalizing her dinner plans. Well no wonder she couldn’t get in the mood.

She was giving me a ton of tests too, which were nothing but a mere annoyance to me. Here’s some:

- During her resistance, she was telling me I seemed frustrated.
- She was mocking the fuck out of me. When I said something, even if it was normal, she would say the same thing I just said in a really high pitched annoying voice.
- When I would hold her hands down, she started mocking me saying "oh you think you’re such a tough guy”
- She kept saying she could beat me up. I told her that she CANNOT beat me up, even if she tried. She asked me how I knew. I just gave off this dismissive vibe. I take self defense classes, but she doesn’t need to know that yet
- I took my shirt off, and she looks at me and says “You’re so little.”
- She’s got this thing with my height. Won’t stop telling me how she’s taller than me or trying to compare our height.
- She blamed ME for not texting her to hang out for 3 weeks. She complained how I never reply to her snaps. Typical girl.

It is clear to me that a lot of this is her trying to get a rise out of me. But the interesting thing is how she is testing my masculinity and dominance. Why is she so obsessed with trying to be dominant over me….it’s a huge power struggle it seems like. I wish she would just submit to me! I mostly reply to her tests by being amused or giving her a neutral face.

Some of the more interesting parts:

Rach: you haven’t seen anything yet (while I was eating her ass)

She was projecting into the future again, saying she will wear heels the next time she comes over. Just her general vibe was like, we’re seeing each other. And she seems to be quite intrigued by me. She’s amazed by how mysterious and weird I am.

I did take a little attainability hit towards the end. We were talking, she started being curious about how many girls I’ve been talking to. i told her I wake up covered in 6 girls every day.

Immediately after that she gets really grumpy and dismissive! I thought it was so interesting to see this happen. The damage done to my attainability was immediate and apparent. Chase’s advice on how to resolve a situation like this would have helped, but I couldn’t recall it at the time. Maaan, managing attainability is such a drag…….sometimes these sorts of comments i make really just make my job harder.

I felt a little worried because I didn’t want her to leave grumpy. I started showing her some of my facial expressions. She absolutely loved my agreeable/cute and sexy face, and started giggling a lot. Then I tried out some emotional cementing.

fog: we have laughed a lot today
Rach: i always laugh. even when i am alone. I am weird

Sooo… I guess it didnt really work.

She leaves, telling me to text her. I will likely not be texting her, and will wait till she texts me. Besides, I realized I’m not that into her….the chemicals that were released into my brain the last time we hang out, tricked me into thinking she’s prettier than she is. Hm, maybe I’m backwards rationalizing.

My First real Bus Approach

Today a girl and I on the bus locked eyes. I had a serious face on. She looked down. We locked eyes again, this time I smiled at her. Wanted to raise my attainability.

Then shortly after she takes off her earphones:

Bus Girl: You’re spilling your coffee!

I look down. My coffee was dripping all over the bus floor. We had a good laugh over that. Then she put her earphones back in and was bobbing her head all around while sneaking glances at me. Lol.

Bus approaches make me uncomfortable. So I wrote down my number on a piece of paper, and gave it to her. We locked eye contact again and smiled, as if it was a mutual agreement that we would get to know each other through text. After that I ignored her.

Before I got off, more eye contact with her. I smiled at her again and she gave me a weird uncomfortable polite smile. Hm…...

…..No text from her yet….I think the “4” in my phone number looked a little bit too much like a 9. Either that or I handled the aftermath of giving her my number wrong. This was a really fun situation.

 

[fog]

Re: songbird fog talks about women

Daygame is becoming pretty magical lately.

Today a girl and I made eye contact, so I walked up to her and started hitting on her. She asked me to sit down with her, and I was surprised when she started hitting on me back! It was really nice and cool.

I also made my first ever gym approach today. For the longest time I was scared to approach at the gym. But indirect approaches are just so ridiculously easy, and the approach invitations are plentiful every time I go, so how could I not do it now?

I seem to be hooking girls instantly/close to instantly lately, but only when I hit the right vibe. They can’t stop giggling when this happens. The ones that aren’t hooking, are not because of some conversational friction on my part.

Prostitute Alert

The other day I was in a tim hortons and I saw a girl wearing fishnets at a table. Man, fishnets turn me on, and we looked at each other so:

fog: hey
girl: hey
fog: youre single right?
girl: yes

I eject to get a coffee and bagel. I walk back up to her:

fog: whatre you up to
girl: I’m working

Working? In fishnets and a semi-suggestive outfit in the middle of the day while sitting at a table…definitely a prostitute. We had a brief conversation, I wasn’t really interested in getting her number, but as I was walking away:

girl: whats your name again?
fog: *walks back* fog

And then we get into another conversation that makes her intrigued about me. I ask for her number:

fog: we definitely need to hang out sometime
girl: yea we should chill, ill come over and we can watch a movie or something

...I bet what happens during that movie will cost me $300. Probably not gonna bother with this one.

Party Fakers

Over the weekend I was at a party and the majority of girls there had boyfriends. It was annoying to me - I would get them hooked ridiculously quick, but then their boyfriend would get all jealous and start intruding.

In one case, this girl glanced at me a few times. Later we were in a group conversation, and she was pretending to ignore me. It was so obvious that she was trying to hide her interest. However later in a conversation between me, her and her boyfriend, she really warmed up and was subtly chasing me. So what should I do in future situations like this…slip her my number on a piece of paper? isolate her somehow?

Gym Staff Girl Thaws Out

I’ll call her Rock. When I first started going to the gym last year, Rock (a staff member) was looking at me a few times. But I never talked to her, and she transitioned into pretending I didn’t exist.

But the other day I talked to her for the first time. I built some basic rapport. I’m attracted to her but she seems to be really bland. And she’s got sort of a deeper voice. And i dont know….when I start wondering if she’s socially experienced or not, the voice in my head tells me no. All of this is a big turn off. But I like her face! And she’s real short too.

After my workout, I went up to the desk and started chatting with her again. She propped her elbows on the desk, and put her face in her hands. I thought that body language was interesting. She was basically leaning in, full attention on me. I started doing some non-verbal flirting, and she had a neutral reaction to it.

Next time I see her I will be more aggressive with my intentions.

 

[fog]

Re: songbird fog talks about women

Met this quirky art girl the other day, and in the middle of our conversation she exclaims in disbelief:

Art Girl: ARE YOU FLIRTING WITH ME?
fog: what do you think?

She says she’s pretty busy with midterms right now but I’m hoping to see her when she’s got some free time. I love how nervous she was around me.

My Coworker Exhibits Interesting Behaviour

Walked into work today, and a girl was working who I rarely see. Our very first interaction ever a while back was a bit of banter. I could not keep up with it and actually made a fool of myself, as much as I hate to say it. After that, she started talking to me in a sort of condescending tone of voice. Clearly she thought she was in charge of me, perhaps banter skills are the main thing she evaluates when choosing a mate.

Well I’ve seen her a few times since then and I’ve had the opportunity to at least establish myself as an equal to her.

So today I walked into work as I said, and my boss (who’s a girl, and flirts at me quite a lot, even though she has a boyfriend) walks over to me and is giving me a lot of attention. Definitely some preselection, of sorts. My boss starts involving the coworker in the convo, and soon I am bantering and being super ultra witty. The conversation ends - I start browsing around the store, doing some shopping. My coworker starts floating around me and coming very close to me, multiple times.

Her and I get in a conversation, and her full attention is on me. I tell her I have to tell her something. She wants to know, but I refuse to tell her till later. She walks back to the cash. For the rest of the time I am there, I say some stuff to her twice, and she replies in one word answers.

Very very weird….my lack of investment in the conversation, and my unwillingness to comply to her request to tell her what was on my mind, made her withdraw her investment in me after she put herself out there. Next time I see her I will crush her with my overwhelming confidence. It would be such a sick comeback from the time she thought she was the boss of me.

My BOSS Exhibited Some Interesting Behaviour Too

Alright so while all this was going on, something very strange happened with my boss. We’re talking about my other job, and I’m telling her how it’s not challenging for me and I can do it in my sleep:

boss: does the work you do for us challenge you?
me: sorta. (the true answer is no, and I bet she could sense my insincerity)

Right after I answer, she starts twirling her hair with a soft look on her face. What the heck. My best guess is that, as my boss, she is in control of me, but if I am bored with the work she is giving me, then that relinquishes some of the control she has over me, makes me more of an equal to her, which turns her on.

 

[fog]

Re: songbird fog talks about women

Working on a Sexual Voice

In Chase’s article, “Tactics Tuesdays: 4 Tips to Handle Conversations in Groups” he lays out the differences between a friendly conversation and interested/intimate conversation. One of the differences he mentions is the tone of voice. Interested/intimate conversations consist of down tones, while friendly conversations consist of up tones.

This opened up a door for me. I never really knew how to convey a sexy tone of voice to someone that showed I was interested. And at the same time, I was being friendly with my voice without even realizing it!

So now whenever I wanna be friendly, I use a lot of uptones. And if I wanna be sexy, I use downtones. I started practising recently by calling girls on the phone that I have already had sexual relationships with. A little bit of purr and some down tones can really make the conversation sexual, even if you’re just talking about regular shit! And if she responds by talking in the same way, then everythings golden….

The phone was a good place to try this out first because that sort of interaction is primarily voice based. I will start trying this out in person too.

A Turned On Girl at The Gym

I saw this girl at the gym, she had the nicest ass I’ve ever seen. I actually got half a boner from looking at it. That never happens.

I’m at the weight rack, and I’m thinking about what weight to grab. She comes up:

Girl: are you taking this one?
Fog: yes
Girl: Omg I am soo sorry (won’t stop giggling)
Fog: I will let you know when I am done
Girl: OK! (more giggling, walks away)

Huh, interesting. Later after I'm done with the weight, I go and find her. She continues her giggling fit and starts apologizing profusely about how rude it was of her to try to take the weight I was going to use. I smiled and went along with it. I got her name and called her silly, then walked away.

Later I am walking around the gym with my friend (who has been mentoring me a little bit) and I see this girl again out of the corner of my eye, on one of the machines. She is looking in my direction and has a very turned on look on her face.

For the rest of the time I am there, she is floating near me giving me approach invitations, and even starts dancing at one point....clearly to get my attention.

Well I was really confused about what to do....I really wanted to be direct with her, but at the same time I read an article on GC that suggests that you be indirect and build up a relationship over time.

Since I left the interaction on a little bit of an emotional high in my opinion, I decided to just let it be, and wait till I see her next time before I continue flirting. Maybe I could have developed more rapport with her...I seem to be ejecting too early lately, which will need to be fixed.

Daygame Sticking Points

As mentioned, I am ejecting too early. But another problem is that I am getting a bit of approach anxiety in unfamiliar environments. On the street, in post-secondary schools, in stores, I have no problem approaching. But as soon as I get into a place like a small coffee shop, I get a ton of anxiety. I am worried about what people will think, and there is virtually no privacy. These uncertain feelings are normal. I remember when i was scared to do any approaches at the gym. But now that I have a few gym approaches under my belt, it's no big deal, especially if I'm being indirect. I'll have to do some coffee shop approaches, because today I missed out on a huge approach invitation because of it...this girl was quite flustered by my presence, but I still didn't say hello. It feels terrible. I always get mad when I mess up like this, and ruminate a whole 5 minutes on the girl before I find a new girl to focus on.

 

[kristian]

Re: songbird fog talks about women

Well I was really confused about what to do....I really wanted to be direct with her, but at the same time I read an article on GC that suggests that you be indirect and build up a relationship over time.

I would have just go direct and asked her if she wanted to do something after the workout or just traded numbers. Gym-approaches can be fun!

 

[Hue]

Re: songbird fog talks about women

Well I was really confused about what to do....I really wanted to be direct with her, but at the same time I read an article on GC that suggests that you be indirect and build up a relationship over time.

I try not to be too dogmatic about advice I read, especially when I haven't tested it.

The reason the "How to get girls at the gym" article recommends that is because the gym is essentially a social circle. In social circle there are already existing dynamics, there are many expectations and norms for that environment so the slower approach is sometimes more effective than one you might do in say, a day game cold approach.

When a girl is sending you clear signals, it's almost always worth exploring. It sounds like she was - I'd have tried to set up plans for that night or that week.

I don't know if you remember Slay, but I'm pretty sure he had an insta-lay after walking out of the gym to a hot girl also leaving. Anything's possible. Trust your instincts.


Hue

 

[fog]

Re: songbird fog talks about women

hi friends

I would have just go direct and asked her if she wanted to do something after the workout or just traded numbers. Gym approaches can be fun!

good to see you back kristian and thanks for your input. you're right they can be fun - maybe in the future we can meet up and hit on thirsty broads? The gym will be one of our first stops.

I try not to be too dogmatic about advice I read, especially when I haven't tested it.

Trust your instincts.

Hue you have laid down everything I needed to hear in a minimal amount of words. You would not believe the silly mistakes i made recently because I was ignoring my instincts and paying strict attention to logic/gc advice.

I don't know if you remember Slay

ya where did that guy go? he was nice to have around

 

[Hue]

Re: songbird fog talks about women

Glad I could help bro. Judging from some of your other post about your adventures I had a feeling you may have been letting abstracts start to put up red tape with your intuition. I know I still struggle with that here and there.

As far as Slay, I believe he said he was giving up the internet. He wanted to totally "unplug" for some reason. I've been unplugged for a few weeks before and it actually is quite enjoyable. Maybe someday he'll return with tales of the real world.


Hue

 

[fog]

Re: songbird fog talks about women

I'm focussed on moving to Toronto right now so I'm not actively making time to approach. I still do approaches when I'm doing errands and stuff though, if the opportunity presents itself. More on the Toronto move later...today I wanted to talk about 2 cool and super important things i'm excited about.

New Body Language Technique - The Contrapposto Pose

I was browsing through chateau heartiste’s body language tips and he suggested using the contrapposto pose as a way to stand.

I was excited to learn this because….WELLL….I never really thought about my strategy for standing! In the comments section of the CH article on this pose, one of the commenters mentioned that this is a good way to stand because it conveys that you’re relaxed.

I have been experimenting and observing the way people stand.

Building More and Better Emotional Connections

A big focus of mine lately has revolved around the quantity and quality of emotional connections I can build. Interestingly, talking to women has become a lot more fun...and it feels better too. Here are several sub-areas I'm working on:

Us Vs. The World Mentality

I’m a short guy, so when I’m talking with a short girl, we talk about how we have to climb up on the counters to get food. Then i start talking about how the tall people around us will never know what its truly like to have to do that. This is an example of the us vs. the world THING I have started using. I use it whenever I have something in common with the girl.

Relating

I removed the act of relating to what the girl is saying with my own experiences a while back. I think I did it because I didn’t wanna come across like i was trying too hard... something like that. But I brought it back, and it feels so natural and right. I can't believe how big of a gamechanger this is gonna be.

No More Pushes

I have sent hundreds of girls into auto rejection because I started using pushes before they have hooked. Idk why i pushed so much. Obviously I didn't know how to use them right. I've eliminated pushing from my conversations and am focussed on pulls.

 

[fog]

Re: songbird fog talks about women

Today I will be talking about my upcoming move to Toronto, but first I will take a short detour to talk about something interesting that happened yesterday.

I made eye contact with a girl. We held it for a few seconds, then she looked downwards. The unusual part was the look that spread over her face as her head headed in the direction of the floor. She looked devastated....almost defeated....a look of instant auto rejection, I'm pretty sure. That's never happened before.

Some tweaks to my walk, fashion, and default facial expression really seem to be netting me some extra female attention lately. The approach invitations I am getting are ridiculous. However this doesn't mean shit, because I have no tangible results (like getting laid) to show for it.

Moving to Toronto

May 1st I will be moving to Toronto. I will be living with a friend of mine who happens to be a hot blonde. This'll be so sick...I don't think I need to cover the benefits for me.

She's always telling me about the guys who talk to her. She says she has dozens and dozens of guys messaging her who are willing to take her out when she gets to Toronto. Sometimes she tells me about the things they say to her. And the things they say, I find downright uncalibrated..like putting her on a pedestal when they haven't even fucked her yet......implying that they find her really valuable.

Anyways, if she's got dozens and dozens of guys trying to hang out with her, I can definitely imagine why I've sent girls into auto rejection before so easily. Like, they wanna hang with the best of the best. Why would they put up with a guy who makes one mistake when they can easily replace him in 2 seconds with another guy who won't make a mistake? There's a post in the general forum right now by nothing003, and this sort of thing is why he got ghosted.

There are hipster girls galore in Toronto. i LOVE girls who are fashionable and aesthetic, and the majority of hipster girls are. This is a type of girl I will be working on specializing in. There’s a small hipster community where I live right now, but its awfully tough to find them and practise on them during the day. My style is firmly in the hipster territory as well which will make things easier.

My goal for this summer is 1000 approaches, and it will be ridiculously easy to accomplish this in Toronto.