Is it wrong that non-player men sometimes unknowingly marry high count women?

[Conquistador]

“Betas” can seek out a girl from a good family with a Catholic conservative upbringing who never strayed.

100% agree with this part, OP is missing that fundamentally it’s the man’s responsibility to screen properly. If he cares about partner count, he should seek out such girls intentionally, and if he puts a ring on a girl’s finger without due diligence, that’s his fault more than hers.

If they manage to get the status or social skills required to gain access.

Huh?
Any Western man who isn’t starving or creepy can have his pick of girls from / / / / / etc etc if he just buys a plane ticket there and acts normal.
A 0-4 body count woman is easy to find if one merely steps out of the bubble of overprivileged white girls and wannabe Kardashian lookalikes (seems like the pop-lowbrow beauty standards for all nonwhites converge at that).
Not that American women, let alone European women, are all horrible or anything like that, but anyone from these countries can easily turn the market dynamics in his favor without much trouble.

Well, those "beta" boyfriend eventual husband provider guys wouldn’t have been able to give their post-wall wives those alpha fucks experiences back when they were hot young girls regardless.

Here’s the crux of it.
We live in a unique epoch where these things (sex but more broadly consumption) matter a lot more than they ever have anywhere else at any other time.
This attitude is essentially unsustainable without a further wave of technological revolution (which may or may not occur).
Basically, in order for you to consume someone must produce.
Sure, you can outsource the production, but there’s no free lunch.
What maximizes production and minimizes wastage?
A society with strong, but not rigid, “family values”.
A lot of people instantly think “maybe that holds for an agrarian society but in the 21st century we’re past that”.
Not really. Sub-replacement fertility requires our society to feed off of immigrants. That has consequences.
And besides, the most time- and- resource efficient way to cultivate future workers is…you guessed it…

My prediction is that Western society, if it isn’t already, is going to start arcing back towards historical norms in my lifetime.

And while what I said is horribly materialist (in the formal sense) in that I implicitly correlated society’s net surplus of goods and services with happiness, I think it makes sense.

The average player, besides, is not an “alpha” by anyone’s definition of the word. PUAs and “naturals” are in the minority. He’s simply a guy who can provide steamy NSA experiences on demand. By any other measure, he’s a loser. He likely can’t generate resources very effectively. My sister could beat him at arm wrestling, and probably in a fight. He has no particular nurturing qualities.
All these things, of course, when they’re at high levels (rather than “beta” mediocrity) are aphrodisiacs to women anyway.
The “alpha provider” is a redundancy, not a paradox.

IMO everyone is all the better for it. He gets to pass on his genes and have a wife who bosses him around and in the process “makes him the best version of himself.” In exchange she gets a provider.

He is losing out on the opportunity to marry a girl with more pair-bond ability, who might actually let him lead, and who will be a better mother to his children than the majority of high-body-count women could ever be.
But as I said, that’s his problem.

 

[Water_Polo]

Ok you're right. Society would look exactly the same if all men got pussy on tap.

No man ever works harder to get approval and attention from women than otherwise, and it's not behind entire trilllion dollar industries that say buy this to get women. Bust your ass off and innovate to get ahead to impress women.

Men would be working super hard to buy stuff they don't need even if it wasn't marketed as getting you pussy. You're correct. I accept. There aren't billions of men pursuing status as a way to get female attention. You're correct. All of mating research is wrong on that.

Everyone knows that men pursue status and wealth for their own enjoyment, and never as a way to get women. Hence, if all men had pussy on tap, men would work just as hard, innovate just as much, and there would be on difference. Thanks for letting me see the light. **Pat on the head**

All of mating research lmao ok bro good one

Yeah men only compete and innovate in industry for women. That's why civilization thrived during culturally enforced monogamy when men were expected to stop competing for women and be married in their 20s, before they could really do anything to establish themselves in a career. They never tried to do anything with themselves after that because they were done competing for women and civilization collapsed. Oh wait no that never happened.

 

[bgwh]

All of mating research lmao ok bro good one

Yeah men only compete and innovate in industry for women. That's why civilization thrived during culturally enforced monogamy when men were expected to stop competing for women and be married in their 20s, before they could really do anything to establish themselves in a career. They never tried to do anything with themselves after that because they were done competing for women and civilization collapsed. Oh wait no that never happened.

No I agree, no need to convince me. I see the light now. Men don't pursue status to impress and get women. If all men had game all men would work just as hard and we would have the same amount of technological progress. I agree with you. **Pat on the head**

 

[bgwh]

100% agree with this part, OP is missing that fundamentally it’s the man’s responsibility to screen properly. If he cares about partner count, he should seek out such girls intentionally, and if he puts a ring on a girl’s finger without due diligence, that’s his fault more than hers.

Huh?
Any Western man who isn’t starving or creepy can have his pick of girls from / / / / / etc etc if he just buys a plane ticket there and acts normal.
A 0-4 body count woman is easy to find if one merely steps out of the bubble of overprivileged white girls and wannabe Kardashian lookalikes (seems like the pop-lowbrow beauty standards for all nonwhites converge at that).
Not that American women, let alone European women, are all horrible or anything like that, but anyone from these countries can easily turn the market dynamics in his favor without much trouble.

Here’s the crux of it.
We live in a unique epoch where these things (sex but more broadly consumption) matter a lot more than they ever have anywhere else at any other time.
This attitude is essentially unsustainable without a further wave of technological revolution (which may or may not occur).
Basically, in order for you to consume someone must produce.
Sure, you can outsource the production, but there’s no free lunch.
What maximizes production and minimizes wastage?
A society with strong, but not rigid, “family values”.
A lot of people instantly think “maybe that holds for an agrarian society but in the 21st century we’re past that”.
Not really. Sub-replacement fertility requires our society to feed off of immigrants. That has consequences.
And besides, the most time- and- resource efficient way to cultivate future workers is…you guessed it…

My prediction is that Western society, if it isn’t already, is going to start arcing back towards historical norms in my lifetime.

And while what I said is horribly materialist (in the formal sense) in that I implicitly correlated society’s net surplus of goods and services with happiness, I think it makes sense.

The average player, besides, is not an “alpha” by anyone’s definition of the word. PUAs and “naturals” are in the minority. He’s simply a guy who can provide steamy NSA experiences on demand. By any other measure, he’s a loser. He likely can’t generate resources very effectively. My sister could beat him at arm wrestling, and probably in a fight. He has no particular nurturing qualities.
All these things, of course, when they’re at high levels (rather than “beta” mediocrity) are aphrodisiacs to women anyway.
The “alpha provider” is a redundancy, not a paradox.

He is losing out on the opportunity to marry a girl with more pair-bond ability, who might actually let him lead, and who will be a better mother to his children than the majority of high-body-count women could ever be.
But as I said, that’s his problem.

It's not about it being her fault, or his responsibility. I agree with that on the individual level. It's exactly what I would tell the individual AFC. In fact I would encourage him to get him and take full responsibility.

But the topic isnt individuals. I'm talking society in general. The solution doesn't **scale**.

If every man learned about the secret society, it would no longer exist. It's mere existence relies on systematically deceiving a majority of men about the true nature of women.

An individual woman deceiving an individual man isn't the topic. It's part of a system.

 

[Water_Polo]

No I agree, no need to convince me. I see the light now. Men don't pursue status to impress and get women. If all men had game all men would work just as hard and we would have the same amount of technological progress. I agree with you. **Pat on the head**

The point of sex is to procreate but that's not why men consciously do it

The point of status for men is to procreate but that's not why men consciously do it

Sometimes people fuck cause they want kids and sometimes men just want status to fuck and nothing else but they're wired to want these things regardless of conscious evolutionary benefits.

Even in jail where there's no pussy around men are still competing for status, it never ends. Men are always wired to want power.

If the only reason why you want to work hard is for girls then have fun bud.

Take a look at any innovator in any industry and see which one's are only in it for the pussy. Bill Gates, Elon, Steve Jobs, Tesla, Einstein, The Wright Brothers, all in it for the pussy and nothing else. Clearly.

 

[bgwh]

The point of sex is to procreate but that's not why men consciously do it

The point of status for men is to procreate but that's not why men consciously do it

Sometimes people fuck cause they want kids and sometimes men just want status to fuck and nothing else but they're wired to want these things regardless of conscious evolutionary benefits.

Even in jail where there's no pussy around men are still competing for status, it never ends. Men are always wired to want power.

If the only reason why you want to work hard is for girls then have fun bud.

Take a look at any innovator in any industry and see which one's are only in it for the pussy. Bill Gates, Elon, Steve Jobs, Tesla, Einstein, The Wright Brothers, all in it for the pussy and nothing else. Clearly.

Dude I agree with everything you say. Why are you continuing to qualify yourself to me?

I agree. All men tommorow could get an ability to get pussy on tap, and nothing would fundamentally change in society, how hard men work, all the infrastructure etc. I agree. You convinced me. **Pat on the head**

 

[Water_Polo]

Dude I agree with everything you say. Why are you continuing to qualify yourself to me?

I agree. All men tommorow could get an ability to get pussy on tap, and nothing would fundamentally change in society, how hard men work, all the infrastructure etc. I agree. You convinced me. **Pat on the head**

That's not what qualifying means bro but I'm glad you agree thanks. Keep looking out for those "afcs" though, at least you'll never be one of those guys.

 

[bgwh]

That's not what qualifying means bro but I'm glad you agree thanks. Keep looking out for those "afcs" though, at least you'll never be one of those guys.

Thanks Elon

 

[Water_Polo]

Thanks Elon

Any time Weinstein

 

[Will_V]

What gets missed in these sort of conversations is the inherently competitive natural state of the world. And in this case, we are dealing with nature directly (vis a vis women's sexual preference).

Social value (and a large part of sexual value) is inherently relative. We typically show men respect not because of the absolute value of what they do or what they are, but because of how they behave relative to everyone else, and who they are relative to everyone else. That's where the whole idea of the 'contextual alpha' (which I think is really valuable and worth understanding) arose.

Women by default set their filters to relative values. If there's two guys in front of her showing interest, she will typically be immediately more responsive to the one who is most dominant rather than the one who is more submissive (and in every relationship of any sort between people, men or women, at any given time, there is one person who is more dominant - I mean actually dominant not just acting that way - than the other). Then there are all sorts of other relative value points - how charming/interesting he is, how physically attractive he is, his relative height, his ethnicity etc.

If you are a guy who is, relatively speaking, less appealing on first impression to other guys around, and lower down in the social hierarchy, the best thing you can do is separate yourself as much as possible from any scene in which simple relative comparisons can take place, and immediately establish in her mind whatever frame you are most competitive in as strongly as possible. So you want to stay away from dating apps (where looks matter a lot simply because there's nothing else you can show there) and do something like daygame (where looks are much, much less relevant, and your ability to talk, flirt, and engage her is most important).

The best way to look at dating is to look at yourself as a fish, and you can choose your pond. Do you want to compete with every other guy on the planet in the same pond, and go on tinder (where incidentally women, and especially beautiful women, don't spend a lot of time) or establish a small pond where you are a big fish (daygaming for example, where you are probably the only new guy she talked to that day or week).

As you get better socially and seductively, improve your fundamentals etc (become a bigger fish), you can move to bigger ponds with more competition, and continue to win. But if you start in the biggest pond as a tiny fish, you'll just spend a lot of time watching bigger fish enjoying themselves, and wondering wtf you're ever going to be able to do about that. That's where the manosphere wants you to stay, because it keeps their subscriptions high. They want you to focus on the big fish and how bad it makes you feel to see them having the things you want.

I believe one of the reasons a lot of guys go out to daygame and find it very difficult to get results is that they are first consuming this distorted reality that is peddled on the internet, and when they go out they cannot simply relax or enjoy the present moment of meeting a woman and being curious and interested in her. Instead, they feel all the tension and anxiety of living in the world they've been told about, where gigachads are circling around like sharks and they are a little sardine with no hope of competing, and the women they approach, who would have been happy to talk to them, of course see it on their faces and go 'well I don't know why he's talking to me because he doesn't look so happy' and bail asap.

The reality is that yes, the world is a competitive place, and even if all the guys on the planet starting learning game, it would make little difference, because the relative value equation would simply change accordingly. But if you realize that the world is a big place, and your competitiveness is a transient function of location, time, and most of all your own efforts, skills, and abilities to find and take opportunities, you can be the guy that thrives in the wilderness that everyone else tries to insulate themselves from with comforting illusions of helplessness or ignorance.

And that is the true red pill that guys choose not to swallow.

 

[Conquistador]

It's not about it being her fault, or his responsibility. I agree with that on the individual level. It's exactly what I would tell the individual AFC. In fact I would encourage him to get him and take full responsibility.

But the topic isnt individuals. I'm talking society in general. The solution doesn't **scale**.

If every man learned about the secret society, it would no longer exist. It's mere existence relies on systematically deceiving a majority of men about the true nature of women.

An individual woman deceiving an individual man isn't the topic. It's part of a system.

You talk as if all women are active in the secret society.
This is nowhere near as accurate as some people think, especially in the 2020s.

 

[bgwh]

You talk as if all women are active in the secret society.
This is nowhere near as accurate as some people think, especially in the 2020s.

How so? I know you just skim and pigeonhole people in categories, but it was pretty clear from almost every post on here that were talking about specific women. Other posters referred to them as "sluts". I don't like the term, but we weren't discussing all women.

Again I know life is much easier when you skim and pigeonhole views and things into oversimplified black and white views.

 

[bgwh]

What gets missed in these sort of conversations is the inherently competitive natural state of the world. And in this case, we are dealing with nature directly (vis a vis women's sexual preference).

Social value (and a large part of sexual value) is inherently relative. We typically show men respect not because of the absolute value of what they do or what they are, but because of how they behave relative to everyone else, and who they are relative to everyone else. That's where the whole idea of the 'contextual alpha' (which I think is really valuable and worth understanding) arose.

Women by default set their filters to relative values. If there's two guys in front of her showing interest, she will typically be immediately more responsive to the one who is most dominant rather than the one who is more submissive (and in every relationship of any sort between people, men or women, at any given time, there is one person who is more dominant - I mean actually dominant not just acting that way - than the other). Then there are all sorts of other relative value points - how charming/interesting he is, how physically attractive he is, his relative height, his ethnicity etc.

If you are a guy who is, relatively speaking, less appealing on first impression to other guys around, and lower down in the social hierarchy, the best thing you can do is separate yourself as much as possible from any scene in which relative comparisons can take place, and immediately establish in her mind whatever frame you are most competitive in as strongly as possible. So you want to stay away from dating apps (where looks matter a lot simply because there's nothing else you can show there) and do something like daygame (where looks are much, much less relevant, and your ability to talk, flirt, and engage her is most important).

The best way to look at dating is to look at yourself as a fish, and you can choose your pond. Do you want to compete with every other guy on the planet in the same pond, and go on tinder (where incidentally women, and especially beautiful women, don't spend a lot of time) or establish a small pond where you are a big fish (daygaming for example, where you are probably the only new guy she talked to that day or week).

As you get better socially and seductively, improve your fundamentals etc (become a bigger fish), you can move to bigger ponds with more competition, and continue to win. But if you start in the biggest pond as a tiny fish, you'll just spend a lot of time watching bigger fish enjoying themselves, and wondering wtf you're ever going to be able to do about that. That's where the manosphere wants you to stay, because it keeps their subscriptions high. They want you to focus on the big fish and how bad it makes you feel to see them having the things you want.

I believe one of the reasons a lot of guys go out to daygame and find it very difficult to get results is that they are first consuming this distorted reality that is peddled on the internet, and when they go out they cannot simply relax or enjoy the present moment of meeting a woman and being curious and interested in her. Instead, they feel all the tension and anxiety of living in the world they've been told about, where gigachads are circling around like sharks and they are a little sardine with no hope of competing, and the women they approach, who would have been happy to talk to them, of course see it on their faces and go 'well I don't know why he's talking to me because he doesn't look so happy' and bail asap.

The reality is that yes, the world is a competitive place, and even if all the guys on the planet starting learning game, it would make little difference, because the relative value equation would simply change accordingly. But if you realize that the world is a big place, and your competitiveness is a transient function of location, time, and most of all your own efforts, skills, and abilities to find and take opportunities, you can be the guy that thrives in the wilderness that everyone else tries to insulate themselves from with comforting illusions of helplessness or ignorance.

And that is the true red pill that guys choose not to swallow.

I don't think anyone disagrees with what you wrote. It's pretty well accepted.

You're actually proving my point.

My point was that you can't say "well if AFCs all learned game, then it wouldn't be an issue, so fuck empathy for AFCs"

Except if all AFCs learned game it would stop working. That's literally what I said here:

Is it wrong that non-player men sometimes unknowingly marry high count women?

English is my second language what is a hobgoblin?? No hablo inglés... thanks in advance

www.skilledseducer.com

 

[Will_V]

I don't think anyone disagrees with what you wrote. It's pretty well accepted.

You're actually proving my point.

I don't think we disagree then on very much.

Seems like you are expressing an emotional point (AFCs should get sympathy) while other guys are mostly making practical points (AFCs should improve themselves), as other guys have already pointed out.

I think we generally have here a sympathetic group of guys who are walking their own difficult paths in different ways, but the sympathy is usually expressed in the form of positive criticism and encouragement to action. That's typically how guys band together, especially if they have come to realize harsh truths about the world that can't be countered with feelings.

I will say that my first responses to this thread were probably a bit too focused on criticizing the manosphere and its culture, and I could have made my points in a clearer way, though I don't think it changes the behavior of anyone reading.

Except if all AFCs learned game it would stop working. That's literally what I said.

Sure. But we both know that all guys won't go and learn game, only a vanishingly small percentage. The same way that the vast majority of guys won't try to go and excel in all sorts of other ways that are not impossible for them. Because it's difficult, and they want it to be easy.

So practically what is the important takeaway for any given individual? That they can choose to do what most guys will not.

 

[Bismarck]

I want to say that I agree with Will that in the West today finding a 20-25 y.o. girl who is pretty, physically fit, has no tattoos, is stylish without showing too much skin, who’s parents have a healthy relationship (man-woman) and are still together, who has ethics and values (doesn’t need to be Catholic), who is not on Instagram, who is not particularly feminist (more for social frame purposes, to fit in with her girlfriends), who has not been with more than a handful of guys (mostly in LTRs) and who doesn’t intend to become a CEO of a fortune 500 company, freezing her eggs so she can “give birth” at the age of 50, requires a fair bit of sorting wheat from chaff.

In short, one is more or less forced to create a harem of girls who are either physically fit and not pretty or pretty and not physically fit (or both fit and cute but broken personality-wise (tats, SSRI blockers, weed, alcohol, radfem, etc.)), and go through dozens of dates, all the while continuing to reach for the fruit that is not low-hanging, in the hopes of obtaining a girlfriend who may then prove to be marriage material.

 

[Chase]

@AbWongX,

Chase, I agree that I need to gain more field experience before making definitive conclusions. You're right, a lot of my anxieties are mostly based on conjecture and what I've read online. I'll definitely try to keep an open mind and not let my biases cloud my judgment when I'm actually out there interacting with white women. And I think you are genuine and not blowing any smoke here.

However, I do have a question regarding the successful Asian PUAs you mentioned in SoCal. Were these guys active before the rise of online dating, say, before 2016? I've read a lot of red pill/black pill content that suggests online dating applications and Instagram have drastically changed the landscape for men, especially those who aren't considered conventionally attractive [e.g. tall and white].

The argument is that Instagram and dating apps have flooded white women with an overwhelming number of sexual options, including countless tall, good-looking white Chads. This, in turn, has supposedly inflated these women's standards and made them less receptive to less remarkable-looking men they encounter in real life, especially those from less privileged groups like not-very-tall Chinese men. Also, there seems to be an increasing number of sexless Asian-American men based on some statistics I read. I know that I can and should personally be better than any statistic, but still.

So, I'm actually wondering if those short, successful Asian PUAs you knew would still thrive in today's dating environment. Is there any evidence that a short Chinese PUA can consistently attract and get laid with white women in 2024, given the prevalence of dating apps and the hypergamous tendencies they seem to encourage?

I'm not trying to be pessimistic or dismissive; I'm genuinely curious. Maybe many short minority men with game used to do well with white women in the pre-online dating era, but now, with the overwhelming influx of options and the heightened standards fueled by online dating apps and social media, the dating environment and the overall attitudes of white women towards certain groups of men might have changed.

This social media and dating app stuff has zero effect on women in real life.

No girl when you approach her in real life is going, "Oh... well, I don't know if I can date this guy. After all, I just got 80 bajillion likes on my Instagram story today. And 3 Insta-Chads DM'ed me over it. One of them had an 8-pack. So I can date this real-life Asian, no."

Instead she is thinking, "Whoa, a guy is talking to me!" and then she compares you against other guys she has talked to in real life recently and runs you through her mate criteria real quick. Mr. 8-Pack Chad in her DMs does not factor into the calculus here, and will not, unless he manages to land a date with her and actually meet her IRL (unlikely).

100% of the red pill gurus who are telling you "it's OVER for men now because of the SIMP EPIDEMIC / CHAD DELUGE women are experiencing on dating apps and social media!" are abysmal at cold approach and usually haven't opened a girl IRL in years. These guys always either suck at online but ONLY do online and make red pill videos crying about how impossible it is, OR they do decently or well at online but make red pill videos about how hard it is to commiserate with their audience before then telling these guys "The ONLY solution is to BUY MY ONLINE GAME GUIDE COURSE."

This stuff has no bearing on women in real life.

This is the thing you need to understand: these red pill guys are living WHOLLY online, they are raising their hands trying to get women online amidst a sea of THOUSANDS of other men, getting lost in the crowd, and then saying it is impossible.

They are not:

• Going out in real life
• Approaching women in real life
• Getting rejected by girls in real life
• Picking up girls in real life

It is all this online charade.

If you do what they do, you will live in that world with them. So if you are going to shun real life, set up an Instagram and a Tinder and just use "average guy photos" on there, and not follow any kind of specialized system for cleaning up on Insta/Tinder, then you are going to experience exactly what these red pill guys are telling you about, because you will be just another one of the nameless mediocre thousands of men raising their hands for a shot with these women online and getting ignored.

OTOH, if you turn off the screens, stop letting the media control your mind, and go out into the real world and just talk to girls until you get laid, you will discover another world in total contrast to the digital world the red pill influencers reside within.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this, Chase. Have you seen any evidence that contradicts this red-pill perspective? Are there any examples of short Chinese PUAs who are currently thriving in the Western dating scene, despite the challenges posed by recent online dating culture and evolving societal preferences?

@Proper is Asian. You can read his wonderful lay reports here, including 13 full lays over the last 2 or so years.

We've got other guys on here who are Asian and pulling ass like mad too.

These red pill gurus have stuffed your brain full of a false reality, amigo.

Time to take the real red pill and wake up out of dream world...

Chase

 

[isildur1]

When it comes to sex and relationships, there is no reasonable answer except 'everyone should be able to make their own choices about who they sleep with and on what terms', and that should never be required to take into account anyone else's concerns.

The reason why I have a problem with the red pill is that the underlying sentiment is bitterness and fear, and that's poisonous to actual self development. All you have to do is listen to them for five seconds and you can hear it in their voices. You can see the helpless desperation on their faces when they start talking about 'alpha fucks and beta bucks' and all that quippy stuff. Even though some of them are intelligent men who talk about some interesting theoretical stuff, the majority of what they project onto the airwaves is destructive to a young guy trying to make his way in the world.

Does that mean they don't have anything interesting to say, or legitimate grievances about certain mechanisms of society, such as the court system, the media, or the institution of marriage? Sure they do. But mixed into it is the poisonous mentality of men who have been knocked down and decided not to get up and fight again, who instead live out a strange obsession with the proclivities of the women who have hung them out to dry, and who try to prove that everyone should be down there with them. And that's something that every man who values his own courage and reckons on his own abilities should distance himself from.

I've been in the dumps mentally as a young guy, and I've been bitter and resentful (not toward women, but at life in general) to the point where I thought it had permanently disfigured my spirit. It took me many years to rid myself of it, to painfully endure the process of self transformation, and establish an internal reality that can never be shattered. My women love me because of what I've done, not because they know exactly what it entailed, but because they get to reside in the surety and tranquility of someone who has faced their demons and won.

And right at the beginning of that process, the first choice I had to make was whether I could have the courage to say 'even if I never live to see the day, let everyone else get there if they will'. That is the foundation of masculine courage, to seek the best for everyone as he seeks the best for himself, and to face his own limitations, and whatever fate has in store for him, as gracefully as he can muster.

And right next to me in my life there are people who have chosen not to make the choices I've made, and all I can say is that I hope they find peace somehow, because it's very painful where they are, and it doesn't get easier as time goes by, though the choice never goes away.



I never told anyone to shut up, and I welcome discussion. Sometimes I might sound harsh but it's just the way I feel about things, and never directed at anyone personally. I like to talk about this stuff, and I hope it's clear that the only thing I've attacked is people who find a big platform on social media to broadcast destructive mental models out into the world.

Chase, thank you for your new perspective on the terminology, and I agree that the AFC/PUA spectrum offers a more dynamic view of male development. However, I'm not convinced that the transformation from AFC to mPUA is equally accessible to all men. Looks, money, and social status matter. A lot. And let's not forget, race is a HUGE part of that "looks" equation. Just my opinion, but I assume that it would be easier for a man to transform from an AFC to an mPUA if he is tall, white, good-looking, rich, and/or has status.

While I've had some personal success dating Chinese women in Singapore, I'm personally a bit apprehensive about moving to the United States and entering the dating scene in California. I've heard that white women in the USA, especially in a place like California, might be quite different. For example, I've read and heard they can be more demanding and have extremely high standards. The competition seems to be fierce, especially with those 6'1" pretty white boys you see on TikTok and/or YouTube with chiseled jaws and blue eyes. I'm just a 5'9.5" Chinese guy with a weak jawline and a wide nose. Realistically, how can I compete with that? It sometimes makes me feel inadequate and question my chances with white women. My race is a fundamental part of my appearance, and it's something I can't change.

I'm a fan of this former-PUA-turned-Christian named Roosh, and I've read his books and articles, and even he admits that the game is harder for minority guys (e.g., Chinese, Indian) who aren't tall and don't fit the Western ideal. And I think it was Rollo Tomassi, the godfather of the 'red pill', who really hit me with a dose of real 'red pill'!? He talked in one of his writings about how many East Asian and Indian incels in the West struggle because, let's face it, they're often seen as unattractive within the dominant Western culture. He implied even with "game," it might not be enough for many Asian men to overcome those deeply ingrained racial biases in white women. That really made me feel a bit depressed.

Even if I master the game, even if I become a smooth-talking Chinese mPUA, will it really be enough to overcome the inherent biases and preferences ingrained in American society? Can "game" really conquer racism in young white women and help a 5'9.5" Singaporean-born-Chinese guy get a pretty white girlfriend when his race is a major factor in how he's perceived? I'm skeptical , but at the same time I'm willing to learn new things and unlearn wrong things.

And even in the scenarios where game might work, it seems to only be effective on white women who have been with multiple sexual partners if Roosh is right about the limitations of game. The virtuous white women, the ones who value commitment and traditional values, are immune to these manipulative tactics. They see through the bullshit and seek genuine connection, something that "game" can never provide. And I wonder if their conservative values might lead them to prefer dating within their own race and avoid a nonwhite man like me.

So, Chase, while I admire your optimism and belief in the transformative power of "game," I'm afraid that for Chinese guys like me, the odds are stacked against us. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm just an inexperienced, insecure Asian AFC who puts white women on a pedestal, but I'm starting to think that the "red pill" is just a bitter pill to swallow for those of us who don't fit the mold of the Western ideal. Maybe I should just resign myself to finding a Chinese woman in my birth country like all my male ancestors and many family members did, but honestly, that thought doesn't fill me with joy. It feels like settling, like giving up on a dream before I've even given it a real shot. Yeah, I, on a subconscious level, think some white women are the closest to genetic perfection at least looks-wise.

If I haven't seen even one example of one man like me - a not-so-tall, Chinese FOB - finding happiness with the kind of white woman I desire, does that mean that it's impossible? Could I potentially become an outlier - the first Chinese FOB to date and marry a young attractive white woman - a pioneer of some sorts in California? Or am I being completely unrealistic?

Chase, you're a tall white man who's likely had success with young white women. I'm a Chinese man who's been told by many of my own race [including one grandfather] that my dream of attracting and marrying a young white American girl is delusional. American people do not find Chinese men attractive. These Americans only tolerate Chinese women. Apparently, I should just stick to my own race, they say. Is it wrong for me to pursue this dream, even when faced with discouragement and seemingly insurmountable odds? Is it noble to strive for something that others deem impossible, especially when my race is a major factor in how I'm perceived? I'd like to hear your perspective on this.

Sorry for this long, potentially analytical, out-of-topic rant. Just needed to get that off my chest.

i dont understand this viewpoint -

until you do alot of cold approaches you won't get the answer to your own questions- you're asking strangers on the internet to come up with solutions for you - until put in the reps and do 100-500 solid cold approaches and have some dating experience for yourself . The only way to think independently is to get the experience for yourself - if your height is an issue , build some muscle and work on your fashion those two things are in your control.

"discouragement and seemingly insurmountable odds" any cold approach by done anyone is an insurmountable odd to begin with whether you're a male 10 or a male 1 . The whole thing is a huge numbers game at his core- so anyone here who's taken action is starting off facing insurmountable odds- i dont understand this argument again

want "conservative women" then approach more women in places conservative women hang- churches, Science unis and what not. its not that difficult heck if you really want it you have to open the opportunities up for yourself and work on the volume and your own smv .

things are stacked against any daygamer in general for one - took me around 70 appraoches to get my first lay and roughly 600-700 before i met my girlfriend - i was surrounded by friends and family who told me daygame was all bullshit, creepy and weird and i am an middle eastern ethnic minority living in London now (actually i am the same ethnicity as Roosh V for what its worth) i am dating a "conservative" woman and i am enjoying the relationship a lot right now . I've seen people with a lot more disadvantages than me who were also ethnic minorities crush the game a lot harder. It's doable but you need some degree of confidence and work ethic

Living in London i saw many Indians, Pakistanis , Africans do well - the ones that did well ignored the bullshit and kept at it -yes they got blow outs and harsh rejections but in reality no more or less than the majority of my white wings. In fact one of the most Succesful daygamers i met was half Indian.

You live in California you should be lucky and have gratitude that you live in such a vibrant part of the world - for men who are born and raised in the third world they have it 1000 times harder than you will ever.

had i listened to the people around me or the red pillers i wouldnt be in a relationship now and if you're going to let your family define your limiting beliefs -if you're that weak minded an individual then maybe you don't deserve dating success - .

 

[Chase]

@bgwh,

@Chase - I agree, but we're talking about different topics.

- Yes, if you look at the individual afc, he can become a player, almost anyone can (barring deformities or something like you said).

- I'm talking about the societal. You can't have all AFCs become players, the whole system breaks down. Women don't sneak away to have discrete fun with the player if everyone in society has game. At that point "game" will stop working as it does now, and no longer confer benefits. Because women can't do the fun stuff with everyone.

The whole reason game works is because most guys don't have it.

You may find some of my pieces with a society-wide focus, rather than an individual focus, more in line with your thinking:

As Mating Complexity Increases, Do Reproductive Returns Diminish?

Mating gets more complex as our societies become more complex. But as complexity rises, does the law of diminishing (reproductive) returns set in? (image source: Darwin Leo) Bit of an abstract/sociological article here. A little more academic than usual, too. If you'd prefer tactics on dealing...

www.girlschase.com

Why Are 21st Century Men So Apathetic and Unmotivated?

Men of today have lost their motivation to build, fight, work, or get women. What's behind their lethargy, and how can you overcome this in yourself? We live in a distinctly unmotivated time. During the settling of the American continent, European settlers burst through with boundless energy...

www.girlschase.com

Chase

 

[Will_V]

I want to say that I agree with Will that in the West today finding a 20-25 yo girl who is pretty, physically fit, has no tattoos, is stylish without showing too much skin, who’s parents have a healthy relationship (man-woman) and are still together, who has ethics and values (doesn’t need to be Catholic), who is not on Instagram, who is not particularly feminist (more for social frame purposes, to fit in with her girlfriends), who has not been with more than a handful of guys (mostly in LTRs) and who doesn’t intend to become a CEO of a fortune 500 company, freezing her eggs so she can “give birth” at the age of 50, requires a fair bit of sorting wheat from chaff.

Yeah, it's not easy to find women who've walked a good path to where they are.

Though I would differentiate things like exaggerated ambition, because things like that are often expressions of positive innate traits imo, and proper frame control can make these women express those traits in very satisfying ways in a relationship.

I guess it depends on what sort of woman you want to come home to.

 

[isildur1]

Chase, I agree that I need to gain more field experience before making definitive conclusions. You're right, a lot of my anxieties are mostly based on conjecture and what I've read online. I'll definitely try to keep an open mind and not let my biases cloud my judgment when I'm actually out there interacting with white women. And I think you are genuine and not blowing any smoke here.

However, I do have a question regarding the successful Asian PUAs you mentioned in SoCal. Were these guys active before the rise of online dating, say, before 2016? I've read a lot of red pill/black pill content that suggests online dating applications and Instagram have drastically changed the landscape for men, especially those who aren't considered conventionally attractive [e.g. tall and white].

The argument is that Instagram and dating apps have flooded white women with an overwhelming number of sexual options, including countless tall, good-looking white Chads. This, in turn, has supposedly inflated these women's standards and made them less receptive to less remarkable-looking men they encounter in real life, especially those from less privileged groups like not-very-tall Chinese men. Also, there seems to be an increasing number of sexless Asian-American men based on some statistics I read. I know that I can and should personally be better than any statistic, but still.

So, I'm actually wondering if those short, successful Asian PUAs you knew would still thrive in today's dating environment. Is there any evidence that a short Chinese PUA can consistently attract and get laid with white women in 2024, given the prevalence of dating apps and the hypergamous tendencies they seem to encourage?

I'm not trying to be pessimistic or dismissive; I'm genuinely curious. Maybe many short minority men with game used to do well with white women in the pre-online dating era, but now, with the overwhelming influx of options and the heightened standards fueled by online dating apps and social media, the dating environment and the overall attitudes of white women towards certain groups of men might have changed.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this, Chase. Have you seen any evidence that contradicts this red-pill perspective? Are there any examples of short Chinese PUAs who are currently thriving in the Western dating scene, despite the challenges posed by recent online dating culture and evolving societal preferences?

Wasn't Kong from Simple pickup of Vietnamese ancestry? he wasn't particularly attractive but he thrived . I haven't had any east asian wingman to be honeset but as i said my Pakistani, Indian and West African wingmen did pretty well for themselves and their ethnic minorities were considered "undesirable"


seems like the red pill content has done more harm than good for you and you'd be better off finding wingmen in your area and creating real life reference experience for yourself.