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Is it wrong that non-player men sometimes unknowingly marry high count women?
- Thread starter bgwh
- Start date
No. I have never ever said any of these things, nor even thought them in my head.
You have a blindspot here where you want to categorize the world into redpillers and anti-redpillers. So anyone who's not 100% (even if only 99%) aligned, you immediately try to assign canned redpill beliefs on them.
This entire thread is a strawman, even the title is something I've never talked about. All I'm going to reiterate is that the beta bashing is entirely one-sided (lacking a little nuance). That was my only point. But no nuance is allowed on this forum.
Can I go into details what are the 1% of nuance I'd agree with some betas on so you don't have to make wild and outrageous guesses?
I won't, because there's a clear prime directive at maintaining dogma and not allowing nuance. Any detail that one mentions on this forum gets completely deformed, distorted, weaponized and turned into an absurd strawman, and then the original person gets turned into a redpiller caricature to be smashed around. Even if they hate redpillers, they get designated a redpiller avatar to be smashed around.
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@bgwh I'm not sure why you think my opinion is forum dogma, I have pretty strong personal views on certain things but it's not always the 'status quo' of this place, nor are you prohibited from disagreeing with me. The general rule of gentlemanly debate, as I understand it, is to not make personal attacks, and to stick to the point. If you think I haven't done that, feel free to let me know.
I think this topic (regardless of what view you have, and already being in the offtopic section) is veering away from what the platform is all about, which is meeting and seducing women. I will say two things though.
...
I'm not going to refer to the problem as the 'red pill' anymore. I like the concept of the red pill, the choice of illusion vs. reality, and the symbolism it represents for men trying to understand the world against the tide of societal illusions. And the movie is fantastic. So I won't smear it by associating the term with the problem I'm talking about.
Henceforth, the problem (in my humble opinion) is not the red pill, but the manosphere - a pretty apt name I would think for what it represents in terms of its seductive properties.
...
Lastly (and to make sure I'm clearly responding to the actual topic of the thread) I think the term 'alpha widowed' is something that represents women who operate in a very niche part of society, with an insatiable hunger either for getting banged by any dude who floats their boat, or for clambering up the financial and status ladder in their relationships at pretty much any cost, who end up getting dumped by guy after guy, as soon as those guys realize what their game is, and ending up deeply insecure (or maybe they just continue to be so because they were already). These women are not the sort of women you'd want for a relationship anyway.
I've never seen any evidence that a woman who has a relationship with a 'high value guy' in terms of whatever alpha traits you want to name, and is treated well by him throughout the relationship and at the end, comes away any more worse for wear than if the guy had been fairly average. What she will come away with, if the guy was a strong, dominant leader in her life who made her bend to his frame, is a standard for what guys in her life should be that most dudes will fall far short of. If a guy wants to rise to those standards, he can, but he certainly won't if he's too busy being helpless.
I think this topic (regardless of what view you have, and already being in the offtopic section) is veering away from what the platform is all about, which is meeting and seducing women. I will say two things though.
...
I'm not going to refer to the problem as the 'red pill' anymore. I like the concept of the red pill, the choice of illusion vs. reality, and the symbolism it represents for men trying to understand the world against the tide of societal illusions. And the movie is fantastic. So I won't smear it by associating the term with the problem I'm talking about.
Henceforth, the problem (in my humble opinion) is not the red pill, but the manosphere - a pretty apt name I would think for what it represents in terms of its seductive properties.
...
Lastly (and to make sure I'm clearly responding to the actual topic of the thread) I think the term 'alpha widowed' is something that represents women who operate in a very niche part of society, with an insatiable hunger either for getting banged by any dude who floats their boat, or for clambering up the financial and status ladder in their relationships at pretty much any cost, who end up getting dumped by guy after guy, as soon as those guys realize what their game is, and ending up deeply insecure (or maybe they just continue to be so because they were already). These women are not the sort of women you'd want for a relationship anyway.
I've never seen any evidence that a woman who has a relationship with a 'high value guy' in terms of whatever alpha traits you want to name, and is treated well by him throughout the relationship and at the end, comes away any more worse for wear than if the guy had been fairly average. What she will come away with, if the guy was a strong, dominant leader in her life who made her bend to his frame, is a standard for what guys in her life should be that most dudes will fall far short of. If a guy wants to rise to those standards, he can, but he certainly won't if he's too busy being helpless.
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@bgwh,
What should the title be?
The second sentence in the OP was this:
The most direct thread title might be:
Should Beta Providers Be Informed When They Are Marrying Sluts?
Or just make it a statement:
Beta Providers Should Be Informed They Are Marrying Sluts
But then you get into a whole hypothetical argument: who should be doing the informing? Will there be laws? What's the enforcement look like? What steps do you take to avoid false positives?
(then we can get into all kinds of zany solutions. Personally, I'd be happy to take on the role of Slut Detective: "Don't worry, Mr. Smith. I'll find out if this one's a hussy or not for you. If all else fails and the leads turn cold, I'll take the ol' wine her & dine her approach -- if her legs stay closed for ME, I can personally GUARANTEE you your fiancée's no tramp!")
The original sentiment seems to come from an idea of fairness, which is ultimately a moral sentiment.
(it also tells us a bit about your likely politics!)
I figured "is it wrong for non-players to marry sluts without knowing they're sluts?" was the most direct statement of the morality there.
Maybe "Is it unfair" would be more accurate.
btw, I despise the sweeping term 'beta' for non-player men.
In the old seduction community we used to use the term 'Average Frustrated Chump' or AFC.
That was way more accurate than the overly simplistic alpha-beta dichotomy that dominates popular thought today.
Back then we had AFCs, bAFCs (below AFC), wbAFCs (way below AFC), PUAs (pickup artists), mPUAs (master pickup artists)... I think there was something in between AFC and PUA too, but it's evading me for the moment.
It's a lot easier to have sympathy for AFCs when they're just a stage in your progression as a man. Keep working at it and you can go from AFC to PUA.
The alpha-beta thing leads to a lot of posturing and othering. "Haha, I am an alpha; look at those puny betas!" or "It's so sad for the betas; alphas are so cruel, careless, and unfeeling!"
The level of conversation is just a lot lower anywhere alpha and beta are being bandied about (except in the contexts in which they are ethologically correct; e.g., alpha male husband with beta female wife or beta male husband with alpha female wife; alpha male of a group of friends; etc.).
Chase
What should the title be?
The second sentence in the OP was this:
The most direct thread title might be:
Should Beta Providers Be Informed When They Are Marrying Sluts?
Or just make it a statement:
Beta Providers Should Be Informed They Are Marrying Sluts
But then you get into a whole hypothetical argument: who should be doing the informing? Will there be laws? What's the enforcement look like? What steps do you take to avoid false positives?
(then we can get into all kinds of zany solutions. Personally, I'd be happy to take on the role of Slut Detective: "Don't worry, Mr. Smith. I'll find out if this one's a hussy or not for you. If all else fails and the leads turn cold, I'll take the ol' wine her & dine her approach -- if her legs stay closed for ME, I can personally GUARANTEE you your fiancée's no tramp!")
The original sentiment seems to come from an idea of fairness, which is ultimately a moral sentiment.
(it also tells us a bit about your likely politics!)
I figured "is it wrong for non-players to marry sluts without knowing they're sluts?" was the most direct statement of the morality there.
Maybe "Is it unfair" would be more accurate.
btw, I despise the sweeping term 'beta' for non-player men.
In the old seduction community we used to use the term 'Average Frustrated Chump' or AFC.
That was way more accurate than the overly simplistic alpha-beta dichotomy that dominates popular thought today.
Back then we had AFCs, bAFCs (below AFC), wbAFCs (way below AFC), PUAs (pickup artists), mPUAs (master pickup artists)... I think there was something in between AFC and PUA too, but it's evading me for the moment.
It's a lot easier to have sympathy for AFCs when they're just a stage in your progression as a man. Keep working at it and you can go from AFC to PUA.
The alpha-beta thing leads to a lot of posturing and othering. "Haha, I am an alpha; look at those puny betas!" or "It's so sad for the betas; alphas are so cruel, careless, and unfeeling!"
The level of conversation is just a lot lower anywhere alpha and beta are being bandied about (except in the contexts in which they are ethologically correct; e.g., alpha male husband with beta female wife or beta male husband with alpha female wife; alpha male of a group of friends; etc.).
Chase
I dislike the term beta as well. I only adopted it because everyone else here was using it. I personally prefer AFC as well. I come from the MASF days.
Chase, thank you for your new perspective on the terminology, and I agree that the AFC/PUA spectrum offers a more dynamic view of male development. However, I'm not convinced that the transformation from AFC to mPUA is equally accessible to all men. Looks, money, and social status matter. A lot. And let's not forget, race is a HUGE part of that "looks" equation. Just my opinion, but I assume that it would be easier for a man to transform from an AFC to an mPUA if he is tall, white, good-looking, rich, and/or has status.
While I've had some personal success dating Chinese women in Singapore, I'm personally a bit apprehensive about moving to the United States and entering the dating scene in California. I've heard that white women in the USA, especially in a place like California, might be quite different. For example, I've read and heard they can be more demanding and have extremely high standards. The competition seems to be fierce, especially with those 6'1" pretty white boys you see on TikTok and/or YouTube with chiseled jaws and blue eyes. I'm just a 5'9.5" Chinese guy with a weak jawline and a wide nose. Realistically, how can I compete with that? It sometimes makes me feel inadequate and question my chances with white women. My race is a fundamental part of my appearance, and it's something I can't change.
I'm a fan of this former-PUA-turned-Christian named Roosh, and I've read his books and articles, and even he admits that the game is harder for minority guys (e.g., Chinese, Indian) who aren't tall and don't fit the Western ideal. And I think it was Rollo Tomassi, the godfather of the 'red pill', who really hit me with a dose of real 'red pill'!? He talked in one of his writings about how many East Asian and Indian incels in the West struggle because, let's face it, they're often seen as unattractive within the dominant Western culture. He implied even with "game," it might not be enough for many Asian men to overcome those deeply ingrained racial biases in white women. That really made me feel a bit depressed.
Even if I master the game, even if I become a smooth-talking Chinese mPUA, will it really be enough to overcome the inherent biases and preferences ingrained in American society? Can "game" really conquer racism in young white women and help a 5'9.5" Singaporean-born-Chinese guy get a pretty white girlfriend when his race is a major factor in how he's perceived? I'm skeptical , but at the same time I'm willing to learn new things and unlearn wrong things.
And even in the scenarios where game might work, it seems to only be effective on white women who have been with multiple sexual partners if Roosh is right about the limitations of game. The virtuous white women, the ones who value commitment and traditional values, are immune to these manipulative tactics. They see through the bullshit and seek genuine connection, something that "game" can never provide. And I wonder if their conservative values might lead them to prefer dating within their own race and avoid a nonwhite man like me.
So, Chase, while I admire your optimism and belief in the transformative power of "game," I'm afraid that for Chinese guys like me, the odds are stacked against us. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm just an inexperienced, insecure Asian AFC who puts white women on a pedestal, but I'm starting to think that the "red pill" is just a bitter pill to swallow for those of us who don't fit the mold of the Western ideal. Maybe I should just resign myself to finding a Chinese woman in my birth country like all my male ancestors and many family members did, but honestly, that thought doesn't fill me with joy. It feels like settling, like giving up on a dream before I've even given it a real shot. Yeah, I, on a subconscious level, think some white women are the closest to genetic perfection at least looks-wise.
If I haven't seen even one example of one man like me - a not-so-tall, Chinese FOB - finding happiness with the kind of white woman I desire, does that mean that it's impossible? Could I potentially become an outlier - the first Chinese FOB to date and marry a young attractive white woman - a pioneer of some sorts in California? Or am I being completely unrealistic?
Chase, you're a tall white man who's likely had success with young white women. I'm a Chinese man who's been told by many of my own race [including one grandfather] that my dream of attracting and marrying a young white American girl is delusional. American people do not find Chinese men attractive. These Americans only tolerate Chinese women. Apparently, I should just stick to my own race, they say. Is it wrong for me to pursue this dream, even when faced with discouragement and seemingly insurmountable odds? Is it noble to strive for something that others deem impossible, especially when my race is a major factor in how I'm perceived? I'd like to hear your perspective on this.
Sorry for this long, potentially analytical, out-of-topic rant. Just needed to get that off my chest.
The issue with the idea that "if AFCs weren't AFCs, they could be players, so all good" is that it doesn't scale.
You can't have a society where everyone is a player, for the very simple reason that modern society is built upon exploiting non-players who bust their ass off to impress girls with success. Heck, the reason we're not in the stone age is because of AFCs inventing things to impress chicks. If they had game they wouldn't bother.
You can only have players if the majority of guys are AFCs. The only reason you can be a player, is because the entire pyramid is supported by AFCs. The only reason players get to have their fun, is because society brainwashes guys into being AFCs.
"I have no empathy for the victim of brainwashing, because I escaped the brainwashing, and they could too". Actually no, if everyone escaped the brainwashing the whole system would collapse. You can't have chicks sneaking off to have their fun with the player while the AFC supports it, if there are no AFCs.
You can't have a society where everyone is a player, for the very simple reason that modern society is built upon exploiting non-players who bust their ass off to impress girls with success. Heck, the reason we're not in the stone age is because of AFCs inventing things to impress chicks. If they had game they wouldn't bother.
You can only have players if the majority of guys are AFCs. The only reason you can be a player, is because the entire pyramid is supported by AFCs. The only reason players get to have their fun, is because society brainwashes guys into being AFCs.
"I have no empathy for the victim of brainwashing, because I escaped the brainwashing, and they could too". Actually no, if everyone escaped the brainwashing the whole system would collapse. You can't have chicks sneaking off to have their fun with the player while the AFC supports it, if there are no AFCs.
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It can be hard to wrap your head around as a guy because we value looks so highly, but women place significantly more value on a man's behavior in their mating decisions. Men will do this for relationships, but even for casual sex, women evolved with thirty two thousand times more time investment from a pregnancy than men, so they place a lot more stake in your overall caliber as a man. What she verbally says will also not always be true compared to how she actually acts.
Asian Guys and White Girls: The Secret to Success
Note from Chase: Every now and then I get asked about Asian guys and white girls. I understand why some guys ask this; there is a very human tendency we all have to say, "Well, that may work for you, but it's only because you're white / black / Asian / tall / muscular / super smart / naturally...
www.girlschase.com
What Percent Impact Does Race Have on Attractiveness?
Race is a touchy subject in dating and attraction. How much does it really impact your desirability? Anywhere from +19% to -30%, it turns out. We’ve talked about race off and on at Girls Chase. My usual advice is to not worry about it too much, because you can’t change it; there are so many...
www.girlschase.com
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- Mar 27, 2023
- Messages
- 631
I lol'd at Chase's slut detective post. That would make a great movie. Which Sherlock would be better... Cumberbatch or Cavill?
However, I do kind of get where you guys are coming from. I am a little past beginner level and have provider value potential, so when a girl wants to slow game me, I do think in my head... Well, I know you do not do this with every guy... In fact, I am often that other guy and hear about slow gaming other guys when we're in bed!
One thing @ulrich hit me over the head with a while back was that you are very often not each other's #1 preference in potential partners. It is a dating market after all.
It is by nature a world of sexual selection/competition. And yeah to be honest I do not like the ideal of marrying a girl who would rather have been with a different man who simply did not want to pair up with her. Even if she never thinks about him. Maybe this is a mental flaw I need to root out.
But what else can we do except be the best we can be, and by extension better than whatever her other options are? I have spent a great amount of time with some very desirable high partner count women and they were still great connections. But I do think it required being more desirable to her compared to a lot of their pasts.
So I will kind of reserve judgement until I at least triple my lay count or whatever, simply to up my sex skills and relationship skills to be the best she has encountered.
And I should also finish reading "The Story of O". It has been a pretty challenging journey, having started as a white knight. It's fun though!
However, I do kind of get where you guys are coming from. I am a little past beginner level and have provider value potential, so when a girl wants to slow game me, I do think in my head... Well, I know you do not do this with every guy... In fact, I am often that other guy and hear about slow gaming other guys when we're in bed!
One thing @ulrich hit me over the head with a while back was that you are very often not each other's #1 preference in potential partners. It is a dating market after all.
It is by nature a world of sexual selection/competition. And yeah to be honest I do not like the ideal of marrying a girl who would rather have been with a different man who simply did not want to pair up with her. Even if she never thinks about him. Maybe this is a mental flaw I need to root out.
But what else can we do except be the best we can be, and by extension better than whatever her other options are? I have spent a great amount of time with some very desirable high partner count women and they were still great connections. But I do think it required being more desirable to her compared to a lot of their pasts.
So I will kind of reserve judgement until I at least triple my lay count or whatever, simply to up my sex skills and relationship skills to be the best she has encountered.
And I should also finish reading "The Story of O". It has been a pretty challenging journey, having started as a white knight. It's fun though!
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- Jul 25, 2024
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lol who lies more men or women?
Weird thread
Is it wrong that guys lie to women constantly all the time just to fuck? JMULV'S entire pickup is about lying. Men and women lie to each other. I know a boomer who told me about how he lied to a nurse at a party back in the 60s about being a doctor to fuck her and it worked. Politicians lie, everybody lies. That's how things go
Don't agree that society would collapse if everyone became a player lol. You think Elon would rather try to pick up girls in bars than go to Mars? once you have you have a system that works you move on. The entire history of civilization is built on cultural monogamy where every guy basicallly had a woman and pumped out like 7 kids. If anything men having more sex would be a good thing, one less thing to stress out about.
I've known plenty of 'chads' who were miserable. One guy in particular would say that after he finished up with a girl he had to go back to his shitty life.
Beyond sex you need to figure out a way to get your life and finances sorted and try to create a lifestyle that makes you happy. Girls are only one part of that. It take's a long time to figure everything out. Getting puss isn't going to pay the bills, you're going to spend more time at your job than you are being a player.
Weird thread
Is it wrong that guys lie to women constantly all the time just to fuck? JMULV'S entire pickup is about lying. Men and women lie to each other. I know a boomer who told me about how he lied to a nurse at a party back in the 60s about being a doctor to fuck her and it worked. Politicians lie, everybody lies. That's how things go
Don't agree that society would collapse if everyone became a player lol. You think Elon would rather try to pick up girls in bars than go to Mars? once you have you have a system that works you move on. The entire history of civilization is built on cultural monogamy where every guy basicallly had a woman and pumped out like 7 kids. If anything men having more sex would be a good thing, one less thing to stress out about.
I've known plenty of 'chads' who were miserable. One guy in particular would say that after he finished up with a girl he had to go back to his shitty life.
Beyond sex you need to figure out a way to get your life and finances sorted and try to create a lifestyle that makes you happy. Girls are only one part of that. It take's a long time to figure everything out. Getting puss isn't going to pay the bills, you're going to spend more time at your job than you are being a player.
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2022
- Messages
- 132
There was always a "secret society" of guys at the top who can choose their sexual partners freely, while the majority doesn't. There are articles on here that explain the biological reasons behind it. There's no point to bitch and moan about basic human experience, the sooner you will accept it, the better
The massive difference between the West and pretty much any other time and place, is that it's more tolerant and supports freedom and personal responsability. Which means you actually have a decent shot at joining this "secret society" with a few years of focused effort, or at the very least get the same kind of success learning seduction on your own
Compare this to any conservative society where:
1-You marry whoever was available in your village/ whoever your parents decided for you. And if she's ugly or insufferable, tough luck
2-An elite holds all the women in harems and the rest of the male population is used as slaves or sacrifical pawns in pointless wars
3-Celibacy before marriage is strongly enforced by an all-powerful religious structure, while the rich and powerful can get away with all sorts of debauchery
Did the screens/social media/dating apps and a general lack of purpose lead to a rise in loneliness in the West? Most likely. But we're still living in one of the absolute best dating markets ever known in the history of mankind, pretty much only rivaled by the 1st century roman empire (and then again, only for the upper class). The western tolerance for satisficing in a mostly monogamous society is as close to a dating utopia as it gets.
Just thank God every day you live in current time and have access to pick up material. In the Neolithic, which is most of human history, 1 man out of 17 ever reproduced.
The red pill is a pretty clear case of exploiting (or even creating) loneliness to sell products. Most of its dogma and concepts (ie hypergamy, cock carrousel, the wall, monkey branching, alpha/beta, looks money status etc) has no real application, or is just re-marketed mainstream advice ("hit the gym" no shit sherlock). There's no point discussing it on a serious seduction forum, because it's not applicable in field. It's just a flawed mental model
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@AbWongX, I know you have a lot of apprehensions, but so far this stuff is all just conjecture in your head. You need field experience.
Also, because you are going in with your mind already potentially made up, you are going to need to be especially attuned to not letting your own biases color your interpretations of events: "That white girl rejected me. I knew it. It's because I am Asian."
So far you've dismissed what the other guys and I have told you here. Average Asian or Indian dude vs. average white dude, trying to pick up a white girl? Yeah, the Asian/Indian dude is going to have it harder (though not 100% of the time. There are chicks with interracial preferences, chicks who are curious about trying something different, chicks who are into international guys, etc.).
But an mPUA Asian or Indian trying to pick up a white girl? Excellent odds. I already told you some of the best PUAs I knew in SoCal were Asian. One of them was very short with a heavy Chinese accent.
But maybe you think I'm blowing smoke? Dunno...
...
...
@bgwh, yeah, you'll never have a society of all PUAs.
How many guys are trying to be PUAs though? Most guys you talk to about game and they don't care, or say it's hokum, or say they prefer to do things "their own way" (friend zone, following girls on Instagram, swiping endlessly on dating apps with unflattering photos for their profile pics, etc.).
Then among the guys who try to learn it, how many stick with it? Most guys who start learning PUA go on a few dates, get laid once or twice, start dating whatever girl they had sex with, and they're back out of the game. I wrote about it a couple months back:
www.girlschase.com
I hate sounding like some New Age guru but the biggest barriers to becoming a decently skilled PUA are mental. We've got guys with Asperger's posting up triple-digit lay counts, we've got guys like @Carousel who is balding, dour, below average looks-wise, and a super nerd who are running through chicks like a bullet train (even I, the first time I met him, was like "No way this guy gets laid"... and then I watched him pick up a chick and pull her in something like 35 minutes), we've got short Asians with accents laying bunches of taller white Western girls, we've got guys in wheelchairs who pick up and that dude with no arms and legs who pulled off a good-looking wife (and you'd have to guess she probably wasn't his only tail).
The only reason most guys never become PUAs is that they just don't have the drive for it, or they aren't aware of it, or don't believe it. It is always some mental obstacle. Unless a dude is, like, a third-degree burn victim with his face melted off, like this guy... but honestly I bet we could get that guy laid too. Just have him run some Phantom of the Opera-type game and he's all set
Chase
Also, because you are going in with your mind already potentially made up, you are going to need to be especially attuned to not letting your own biases color your interpretations of events: "That white girl rejected me. I knew it. It's because I am Asian."
So far you've dismissed what the other guys and I have told you here. Average Asian or Indian dude vs. average white dude, trying to pick up a white girl? Yeah, the Asian/Indian dude is going to have it harder (though not 100% of the time. There are chicks with interracial preferences, chicks who are curious about trying something different, chicks who are into international guys, etc.).
But an mPUA Asian or Indian trying to pick up a white girl? Excellent odds. I already told you some of the best PUAs I knew in SoCal were Asian. One of them was very short with a heavy Chinese accent.
But maybe you think I'm blowing smoke? Dunno...
...
...
@bgwh, yeah, you'll never have a society of all PUAs.
How many guys are trying to be PUAs though? Most guys you talk to about game and they don't care, or say it's hokum, or say they prefer to do things "their own way" (friend zone, following girls on Instagram, swiping endlessly on dating apps with unflattering photos for their profile pics, etc.).
Then among the guys who try to learn it, how many stick with it? Most guys who start learning PUA go on a few dates, get laid once or twice, start dating whatever girl they had sex with, and they're back out of the game. I wrote about it a couple months back:
How Long Do Most Guys Keep at Pickup?
Lots of guys get into pick up artistry imagining they’ll sleep with tons of women. Most drop out before that point. How long does the average guy stay in? Picking up girls, like anything new, exciting, yet challenging that people embark on, drops practitioners steadily along the way as you go...
www.girlschase.com
I hate sounding like some New Age guru but the biggest barriers to becoming a decently skilled PUA are mental. We've got guys with Asperger's posting up triple-digit lay counts, we've got guys like @Carousel who is balding, dour, below average looks-wise, and a super nerd who are running through chicks like a bullet train (even I, the first time I met him, was like "No way this guy gets laid"... and then I watched him pick up a chick and pull her in something like 35 minutes), we've got short Asians with accents laying bunches of taller white Western girls, we've got guys in wheelchairs who pick up and that dude with no arms and legs who pulled off a good-looking wife (and you'd have to guess she probably wasn't his only tail).
The only reason most guys never become PUAs is that they just don't have the drive for it, or they aren't aware of it, or don't believe it. It is always some mental obstacle. Unless a dude is, like, a third-degree burn victim with his face melted off, like this guy... but honestly I bet we could get that guy laid too. Just have him run some Phantom of the Opera-type game and he's all set
Chase
Chase, I agree that I need to gain more field experience before making definitive conclusions. You're right, a lot of my anxieties are mostly based on conjecture and what I've read online. I'll definitely try to keep an open mind and not let my biases cloud my judgment when I'm actually out there interacting with white women. And I think you are genuine and not blowing any smoke here.
However, I do have a question regarding the successful Asian PUAs you mentioned in SoCal. Were these guys active before the rise of online dating, say, before 2016? I've read a lot of red pill/black pill content that suggests online dating applications and Instagram have drastically changed the landscape for men, especially those who aren't considered conventionally attractive [e.g. tall and white].
The argument is that Instagram and dating apps have flooded white women with an overwhelming number of sexual options, including countless tall, good-looking white Chads. This, in turn, has supposedly inflated these women's standards and made them less receptive to less remarkable-looking men they encounter in real life, especially those from less privileged groups like not-very-tall Chinese men. Also, there seems to be an increasing number of sexless Asian-American men based on some statistics I read. I know that I can and should personally be better than any statistic, but still.
So, I'm actually wondering if those short, successful Asian PUAs you knew would still thrive in today's dating environment. Is there any evidence that a short Chinese PUA can consistently attract and get laid with white women in 2024, given the prevalence of dating apps and the hypergamous tendencies they seem to encourage?
I'm not trying to be pessimistic or dismissive; I'm genuinely curious. Maybe many short minority men with game used to do well with white women in the pre-online dating era, but now, with the overwhelming influx of options and the heightened standards fueled by online dating apps and social media, the dating environment and the overall attitudes of white women towards certain groups of men might have changed.
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this, Chase. Have you seen any evidence that contradicts this red-pill perspective? Are there any examples of short Chinese PUAs who are currently thriving in the Western dating scene, despite the challenges posed by recent online dating culture and evolving societal preferences?
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I think in general you should stop consuming all this red pill doctrine because it’s clearly increasing your anxiety.
Keep in mind that pretty much all red pill priests are not good with women, so what they have to say shouldn’t stop you from going on your own journey of discovery in that arena.
You sound like Oblomov, the Russian aristocrat who had great plans for his domains but who never got out of his chaise longue or bed.
Keep in mind that pretty much all red pill priests are not good with women, so what they have to say shouldn’t stop you from going on your own journey of discovery in that arena.
You sound like Oblomov, the Russian aristocrat who had great plans for his domains but who never got out of his chaise longue or bed.
Yeah, AFCs are all going to be elon musks, even if they get laid on tap. That doesn't go against everything we know from 300,000 years of humanity, but nice try **pat on the head**
@Chase - I agree, but we're talking about different topics.
- Yes, if you look at the individual afc, he can become a player, almost anyone can (barring deformities or something like you said).
- I'm talking about the societal. You can't have all AFCs become players, the whole system breaks down. Women don't sneak away to have discrete fun with the player if everyone in society has game. At that point "game" will stop working as it does now, and no longer confer benefits. Because women can't do the fun stuff with everyone.
The whole reason game works is because most guys don't have it.
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It's not about being Elon, it's about doing something with your life for reasons outside of sex. What do you think "afcs" were doing 300,000 years ago that was so degrading? Working nightshifts in a cave? There were no jobs back then. If everything men did was directly for women, there wouldn't be guys who obsessively compete in things like chess where there's no pussy at the end of it. You don't need to be Elon to keep working hard at something when yiure no longer competing for women. Plenty of guys in wheelchairs who work hard despite not having a dick. "NOT EVERY AFC IS GOING TO BE HAWKING NICE TRY". Stay mad bud.
Gay men work the same dead ass "afc" jobs despite having zero need to impress women while having ass on tap.
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Put a different way, the only reason the secret society exists is because it is secret. It's based on a foundation of lies and deceit. For the secret society to exist, there has to be majority of AFCs that are misled about female nature.
If AFCs knew about the secret society, it would no longer exist. Both "sluts" and players would no longer get to have their fun if AFCs were well informed on how things work behind the scenes.
What I see from both "sluts" and players is just long drawn-out elaborate rationalizations why it's ok to mislead betas, and not feel sorry for them. It's ok to deceive people, because if they discovered websites like this, they'd no longer be deceived, therefore it's ok.
*- I'm only using the term sluts, and in quotes because that is the term used by others in this thread.
Ok you're right. Society would look exactly the same if all men got pussy on tap.
No man ever works harder to get approval and attention from women than otherwise, and it's not behind entire trilllion dollar industries that say buy this to get women. Bust your ass off and innovate to get ahead to impress women.
Men would be working super hard to buy stuff they don't need even if it wasn't marketed as getting you pussy. You're correct. I accept. There aren't billions of men pursuing status as a way to get female attention. You're correct. All of mating research is wrong on that.
Everyone knows that men pursue status and wealth for their own enjoyment, and never as a way to get women. Hence, if all men had pussy on tap, men would work just as hard, innovate just as much, and there would be on difference. Thanks for letting me see the light. **Pat on the head**