Is it wrong that non-player men sometimes unknowingly marry high count women?

[bgwh]

Seems like you are expressing an emotional point (AFCs should get sympathy) while other guys are mostly making practical points (AFCs should improve themselves), as other guys have already pointed out.

Yes, we're finally on the same page. I don't disagree with your advice. In fact I'd point any individual AFC to your posts as treasure tropes of golden nuggets to learn from. As well as pointing any guy I ever speak to about women to visit girlschase website and devour it.

*-Not just emotional, but also sociological. You're approaching it from the individual-level, I'm approaching it from the sociological level. But yes. What we know from societal systems is that they collapse if they get too one-sided. There has to be a balance of empathies. If we stray too much in the "who gives a crap about AFCs as a group", this is actually quite dangerous, sociologically speaking. You can only take lack of empathy for an entire group so far before shit hits the fan.

Edit, Small Addendum, Clarification

"while other guys are mostly making practical points (AFCs should improve themselves), as other guys have already pointed out."

It's only practical on the individual level. Yes, you can tell a guy to just improve himself, and he's no longer an AFC.

The issue is that this is not practical on a societal level. You can't say the solution is that AFCs (as a group) become above average, because that then becomes the new average. It only works on the individual level. If everyone did this, then it wouldn't work.

1) There will always be AFCs (average guys)
2) Women will always keep average guys out of certain hidden benefits
3) Going too far in the "who cares about AFCs" route can end up in serious issues, societally. There has to be balance.

"We shouldn't care about making things more understanding to average guys, because they can become above-average" - doesn't make sense mathematically on the group-level. There will always be average guys. So the issue will always remain.

@Chase

Those articles are pure works of sociological brilliance. I already read the first before and was quite impressed, and just read the second now.

 

[Bismarck]

Yeah, it's not easy to find women who've walked a good path to where they are.

Though I would differentiate things like exaggerated ambition, because things like that are often expressions of positive innate traits imo, and proper frame control can make these women express those traits in very satisfying ways in a relationship.

I guess it depends on what sort of woman you want to come home to.

I think you misunderstood me Will - I don’t mind her being ambitious. However, her wanting to be a CEO is her thinking as if she were a man. Desiring to be a CEO of a F500 company is not something the vast majority of women realistically want unless they’re on the third-wave feminist bandwagon. (Hence the allusion to frozen eggs).

 

[Will_V]

I think you misunderstood me Will - I don’t mind her being ambitious. However, her wanting to be a CEO is her thinking as if she were a man. Desiring to be a CEO of a F500 company is not something the vast majority of women realistically want unless they’re on the third-wave feminist bandwagon. (Hence the allusion to frozen eggs).

OK yeah I understand the point you're making - you don't want her to be domineering and focused on her career over family, right?

I guess I was thinking that if a woman flat out told me she wanted to be the CEO of a fortune 500 company, it wouldn't necessarily turn me off (all else being equal). It all really depends on the way she's responding to me.

 

[isildur1]

@bgwh,



You may find some of my pieces with a society-wide focus, rather than an individual focus, more in line with your thinking:

As Mating Complexity Increases, Do Reproductive Returns Diminish?

Mating gets more complex as our societies become more complex. But as complexity rises, does the law of diminishing (reproductive) returns set in? (image source: Darwin Leo) Bit of an abstract/sociological article here. A little more academic than usual, too. If you'd prefer tactics on dealing...

www.girlschase.com

Why Are 21st Century Men So Apathetic and Unmotivated?

Men of today have lost their motivation to build, fight, work, or get women. What's behind their lethargy, and how can you overcome this in yourself? We live in a distinctly unmotivated time. During the settling of the American continent, European settlers burst through with boundless energy...

www.girlschase.com

Chase

The men in the 21st century blog post is fascinating- thanks

Chase, I agree that I need to gain more field experience before making definitive conclusions. You're right, a lot of my anxieties are mostly based on conjecture and what I've read online. I'll definitely try to keep an open mind and not let my biases cloud my judgment when I'm actually out there interacting with white women. And I think you are genuine and not blowing any smoke here.

However, I do have a question regarding the successful Asian PUAs you mentioned in SoCal. Were these guys active before the rise of online dating, say, before 2016? I've read a lot of red pill/black pill content that suggests online dating applications and Instagram have drastically changed the landscape for men, especially those who aren't considered conventionally attractive [e.g. tall and white].

The argument is that Instagram and dating apps have flooded white women with an overwhelming number of sexual options, including countless tall, good-looking white Chads. This, in turn, has supposedly inflated these women's standards and made them less receptive to less remarkable-looking men they encounter in real life, especially those from less privileged groups like not-very-tall Chinese men. Also, there seems to be an increasing number of sexless Asian-American men based on some statistics I read. I know that I can and should personally be better than any statistic, but still.

So, I'm actually wondering if those short, successful Asian PUAs you knew would still thrive in today's dating environment. Is there any evidence that a short Chinese PUA can consistently attract and get laid with white women in 2024, given the prevalence of dating apps and the hypergamous tendencies they seem to encourage?

I'm not trying to be pessimistic or dismissive; I'm genuinely curious. Maybe many short minority men with game used to do well with white women in the pre-online dating era, but now, with the overwhelming influx of options and the heightened standards fueled by online dating apps and social media, the dating environment and the overall attitudes of white women towards certain groups of men might have changed.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this, Chase. Have you seen any evidence that contradicts this red-pill perspective? Are there any examples of short Chinese PUAs who are currently thriving in the Western dating scene, despite the challenges posed by recent online dating culture and evolving societal preferences?

Also Kong- From Simple Pickup -Vietnamese - short and a bit fat too and yet dated many American women
Yad- Iranian/Kurdish and a fat fuck yet he still got laid from daygame
Roosh V- Half Iranian - seemingly had an illustrious career
Jessie From Simple Pickup - Scrawny Indian and got an attractive American Girlfriend
Tony Solo From The Natural Lifestyles - Short and black but is married to an attractive tall woman

Tom Torero had numerous wingmen of Asian ancestry most notably the likes of Turkish - he also did interviews with short south asians in his documentary based in Singapore and London they also had success too . These guys from the infield seemed to be doing at least ok- i hung out with one of Torero's Pakistani wings once and he got decent results

these are examples off the top of my head if i come up with more i'll note them but arguably Simple Pickup- Kong and Jessie had the biggest impact and they were both dorky Asians who still got laid a lot and had many successful infields - do i think they are "prime daygame ability" no - not at all but they proved even a short podgy Asian with shitty conversation skills could still close and get results.

 

[AbWongX]

The men in the 21st century blog post is fascinating- thanks

Also Kong- From Simple Pickup -Vietnamese - short and a bit fat too and yet dated many American women
Yad- Iranian/Kurdish and a fat fuck yet he still got laid from daygame
Roosh V- Half Iranian - seemingly had an illustrious career
Jessie From Simple Pickup - Scrawny Indian and got an attractive American Girlfriend
Tony Solo From The Natural Lifestyles - Short and black but is married to an attractive tall woman

Tom Torero had numerous wingmen of Asian ancestry most notably the likes of Turkish - he also did interviews with short south asians in his documentary based in Singapore and London they also had success too . These guys from the infield seemed to be doing at least ok- i hung out with one of Torero's Pakistani wings once and he got decent results

these are examples off the top of my head if i come up with more i'll note them but arguably Simple Pickup- Kong and Jessie had the biggest impact and they were both dorky Asians who still got laid a lot and had many successful infields - do i think they are "prime daygame ability" no - not at all but they proved even a short podgy Asian with shitty conversation skills could still close and get results.

I can appreciate the examples you have given! While they're quite encouraging, I'm specifically concerned about shorter (5'9.5") East Asian (chinese) men like myself, not Middle Eastern or South Asian guys. No offense, but I believe that Middle Eastern men and South Asian men have easier times getting white women than East Asian men in general. And Roosh is tall (6'2"), which makes a difference.

As for Kong, are those American women white and conventionally attractive? "American women" is a broad term, and I'm specifically interested in white girls. I'm a Singaporean-born Chinese guy, basically a FOB, with zero experience dating white girls. Frankly, these tall blonde white girls in California seem like a completely different league (in terms of SMV, approachability, beauty) compared to any Asian girl (of my own ethnicity - chinese) I've ever dated in Singapore. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I'm pretty skeptical if I could ever be on the radar of these tall blonde women, especially with the competition from tall white men with that white male privilege. And then there's my accent... Let's just say I don't like having this chinese-singaporean accent.

I'm trying to be realistic, not negative. I'm optimistic about my chances, but also aware of the potential difficulties, especially as a Chinese-Singaporean man with a weird accent trying to date white women in California. Thanks for the interesting response.

@AbWongX,



This social media and dating app stuff has zero effect on women in real life.

No girl when you approach her in real life is going, "Oh... well, I don't know if I can date this guy. After all, I just got 80 bajillion likes on my Instagram story today. And 3 Insta-Chads DM'ed me over it. One of them had an 8-pack. So I can date this real-life Asian, no."

Instead she is thinking, "Whoa, a guy is talking to me!" and then she compares you against other guys she has talked to in real life recently and runs you through her mate criteria real quick. Mr. 8-Pack Chad in her DMs does not factor into the calculus here, and will not, unless he manages to land a date with her and actually meet her IRL (unlikely).

100% of the red pill gurus who are telling you "it's OVER for men now because of the SIMP EPIDEMIC / CHAD DELUGE women are experiencing on dating apps and social media!" are abysmal at cold approach and usually haven't opened a girl IRL in years. These guys always either suck at online but ONLY do online and make red pill videos crying about how impossible it is, OR they do decently or well at online but make red pill videos about how hard it is to commiserate with their audience before then telling these guys "The ONLY solution is to BUY MY ONLINE GAME GUIDE COURSE."

This stuff has no bearing on women in real life.

This is the thing you need to understand: these red pill guys are living WHOLLY online, they are raising their hands trying to get women online amidst a sea of THOUSANDS of other men, getting lost in the crowd, and then saying it is impossible.

They are not:

• Going out in real life
• Approaching women in real life
• Getting rejected by girls in real life
• Picking up girls in real life

It is all this online charade.

If you do what they do, you will live in that world with them. So if you are going to shun real life, set up an Instagram and a Tinder and just use "average guy photos" on there, and not follow any kind of specialized system for cleaning up on Insta/Tinder, then you are going to experience exactly what these red pill guys are telling you about, because you will be just another one of the nameless mediocre thousands of men raising their hands for a shot with these women online and getting ignored.

OTOH, if you turn off the screens, stop letting the media control your mind, and go out into the real world and just talk to girls until you get laid, you will discover another world in total contrast to the digital world the red pill influencers reside within.



@Proper is Asian. You can read his wonderful lay reports here, including 13 full lays over the last 2 or so years.

We've got other guys on here who are Asian and pulling ass like mad too.

These red pill gurus have stuffed your brain full of a false reality, amigo.

Time to take the real red pill and wake up out of dream world...

Chase

Chase, you have a good point. I've been spending too much time online red pill and black pill stuff. Seeing those real lay reports from Proper and Swati should be a nice counter-balance.

I'm going to take your advice and focus on improving the fundamentals and talking to young blonde white women in real life even if I'm a 5'9.5" chinese guy with a shitty accent and I feel like they are beautiful goddesses that are out of my league. But I admit I do feel inferior. I mean, I was reading stuff about Elliot Rodger. The guy was half-white, decent looking (in my opinion) and American-born, and he still couldn't get white girls in California. It makes you wonder, if even more privileged guys like him struggled, what chance do I, a non-western-born chinese guy with a weird accent, have? Regardless, I should not feel sorry for myself and making excuses. I'm going to go for white women anyways.

Thanks for the wake-up call, Chase. I'm taking the real red pill and stepping into the real world. Wish me luck on my progress.

 

[isildur1]

I can appreciate the examples you have given! While they're quite encouraging, I'm specifically concerned about shorter (5'9.5") East Asian (chinese) men like myself, not Middle Eastern or South Asian guys. No offense, but I believe that Middle Eastern men and South Asian men have easier times getting white women than East Asian men in general. And Roosh is tall (6'2"), which makes a difference.

As for Kong, are those American women white and conventionally attractive? "American women" is a broad term, and I'm specifically interested in white girls. I'm a Singaporean-born Chinese guy, basically a FOB, with zero experience dating white girls. Frankly, these tall blonde white girls in California seem like a completely different league (in terms of SMV, approachability, beauty) compared to any Asian girl (of my own ethnicity - chinese) I've ever dated in Singapore. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I'm pretty skeptical if I could ever be on the radar of these tall blonde women, especially with the competition from tall white men with that white male privilege. And then there's my accent... Let's just say I don't like having this chinese-singaporean accent.

I'm trying to be realistic, not negative. I'm optimistic about my chances, but also aware of the potential difficulties, especially as a Chinese-Singaporean man with a weird accent trying to date white women in California. Thanks for the interesting response.



Chase, you have a good point. I've been spending too much time online red pill and black pill stuff. Seeing those real lay reports from Proper and Swati should be a nice counter-balance.

I can appreciate the examples you have given! While they're quite encouraging, I'm specifically concerned about shorter (5'9.5") East Asian (chinese) men like myself, not Middle Eastern or South Asian guys. No offense, but I believe that Middle Eastern men and South Asian men have easier times getting white women than East Asian men in general. And Roosh is tall (6'2"), which makes a difference.

As for Kong, are those American women white and conventionally attractive? "American women" is a broad term, and I'm specifically interested in white girls. I'm a Singaporean-born Chinese guy, basically a FOB, with zero experience dating white girls. Frankly, these tall blonde white girls in California seem like a completely different league (in terms of SMV, approachability, beauty) compared to any Asian girl (of my own ethnicity - chinese) I've ever dated in Singapore. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I'm pretty skeptical if I could ever be on the radar of these tall blonde women, especially with the competition from tall white men with that white male privilege. And then there's my accent... Let's just say I don't like having this chinese-singaporean accent.

I'm trying to be realistic, not negative. I'm optimistic about my chances, but also aware of the potential difficulties, especially as a Chinese-Singaporean man with a weird accent trying to date white women in California. Thanks for the interesting response.



Chase, you have a good point. I've been spending too much time online red pill and black pill stuff. Seeing those real lay reports from Proper and Swati should be a nice counter-balance.

I'm going to take your advice and focus on improving the fundamentals and talking to young blonde white women in real life even if I'm a 5'9.5" chinese guy with a shitty accent and I feel like they are beautiful goddesses that are out of my league. But I admit I do feel inferior. I mean, I was reading stuff about Elliot Rodger. The guy was half-white, decent looking (in my opinion) and American-born, and he still couldn't get white girls in California. It makes you wonder, if even more privileged guys like him struggled, what chance do I, a non-western-born chinese guy with a weird accent, have? Regardless, I should not feel sorry for myself and making excuses. I'm going to go for white women anyways.

Thanks for the wake-up call, Chase. I'm taking the real red pill and stepping into the real world. Wish me luck on my progress.

The issue is until you do the work of approaching 100-500 California white women you'll never know the truth whether your limiting belief is right or not. Seems like you're just trying to find excuses more than look for solutions -

"South East Asian men, middle eastern men have a better
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@ Train: @Swati,

15 minutes ago

I'm going to take your advice and focus on improving the fundamentals and talking to young blonde white women in real life even if I'm a 5'9.5" chinese guy with a shitty accent and I feel like they are beautiful goddesses that are out of my league. But I admit I do feel inferior. I mean, I was reading stuff about Elliot Rodger. The guy was half-white, decent looking (in my opinion) and American-born, and he still couldn't get white girls in California. It makes you wonder, if even more privileged guys like him struggled, what chance do I, a non-western-born chinese guy with a weird accent, have? Regardless, I should not feel sorry for myself and making excuses. I'm going to go for white women anyways.

Thanks for the wake-up call, Chase. I'm taking the real red pill and stepping into the real world. Wish me luck on my progress.

The issue is until you do the work of approaching 100-500 California white women you'll never know the truth whether your limiting belief is right or not. Seems like you're just trying to find excuses more than look for solutions - The red pill is full of excuses but even rollo tomassi said "rejection is better than regret"

"South East Asian men, middle eastern men have a better time at all" I had one wingman from Hong Kong who dominated much more so than my white wings and was a coach briefly for people associated with The Natural Lifestyles so i disagree- other than him though i had no other south east asian wings. But he had excellent fashion and kept himself in shape and had a great vibe - the things he could control he made sure he did the best in that regard. I'd argue middle east and South Asians still face some hardships in the dating world too given the majority of the London pua scene is made up of those ethnicities i've definitely witnessed my eastern European, pakistani and African wingmen getting discriminated against every ethnic minority will have a few issues here and there with some women of course women have personal tastes - there are many ethnicities of women that i personally won't date because theyre not my taste and if a woman choses not to date me because of my race that's fine it's her choice who she dates and who she doesn't . Again most people face rejection most of the time regardless of SMV or ethnicity - its the same for everyone - do some ethnicities have a harder time than others yes with some women but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try again no one here is going to fix the fact that women have personal preferences.

If you accent is an issue take English elocution lessons - i speak Chinese and Korean to help me game more effectively in those nations i took roughly 500 classes of each online with a tutor - i did the work and got a coach to help me fix that issue which enabled me to win more rapport with them in set - hire a coach to deal with your weaknesses if you're genuinely concerned about them . Improve your pronunciation and english so that you're more clear and coherent in sets.

If your height is an issue focus on your muscle mass and fashion- these are things that you can control - make sure you have a strong social media profile - do the basics- You live in California and you're from Singapore that's a very interesting back story you got.

Yes kong was short and Vietnamese- arguably from a far more impoverished nation than most Chinese in Singapore live and he had an attractive girlfriend he was also short - but he had a good vibe and decent fashion in his infields a long with an interesting lifestyle - again he did well in the factors he could control

I think you are trying to be negative because when i mention people like Yad and Kong who have less advantages than you succeeding you seem to ask further irrelevant questions even though i gave you legitimate examples to prove you're wrong- Jessie and Kong really aren't attractive and they did well for themselves in the US https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4BERhyhln8GCSaJuOxmCLQ thats his ex pic btw - for a guy like Kong its a pretty big win imo

 

[isildur1]

I can appreciate the examples you have given! While they're quite encouraging, I'm specifically concerned about shorter (5'9.5") East Asian (chinese) men like myself, not Middle Eastern or South Asian guys. No offense, but I believe that Middle Eastern men and South Asian men have easier times getting white women than East Asian men in general. And Roosh is tall (6'2"), which makes a difference.

As for Kong, are those American women white and conventionally attractive? "American women" is a broad term, and I'm specifically interested in white girls. I'm a Singaporean-born Chinese guy, basically a FOB, with zero experience dating white girls. Frankly, these tall blonde white girls in California seem like a completely different league (in terms of SMV, approachability, beauty) compared to any Asian girl (of my own ethnicity - chinese) I've ever dated in Singapore. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I'm pretty skeptical if I could ever be on the radar of these tall blonde women, especially with the competition from tall white men with that white male privilege. And then there's my accent... Let's just say I don't like having this chinese-singaporean accent.

I'm trying to be realistic, not negative. I'm optimistic about my chances, but also aware of the potential difficulties, especially as a Chinese-Singaporean man with a weird accent trying to date white women in California. Thanks for the interesting response.



Chase, you have a good point. I've been spending too much time online red pill and black pill stuff. Seeing those real lay reports from Proper and Swati should be a nice counter-balance.

I'm going to take your advice and focus on improving the fundamentals and talking to young blonde white women in real life even if I'm a 5'9.5" chinese guy with a shitty accent and I feel like they are beautiful goddesses that are out of my league. But I admit I do feel inferior. I mean, I was reading stuff about Elliot Rodger. The guy was half-white, decent looking (in my opinion) and American-born, and he still couldn't get white girls in California. It makes you wonder, if even more privileged guys like him struggled, what chance do I, a non-western-born chinese guy with a weird accent, have? Regardless, I should not feel sorry for myself and making excuses. I'm going to go for white women anyways.

Thanks for the wake-up call, Chase. I'm taking the real red pill and stepping into the real world. Wish me luck on my progress.

by not going out and being consistent that's the biggest difficulty and harm you're doing. Saying you'll never be attractive to all blonde women in California is a broad generalised statement that really - if you have this you need some lays or daygame success to increase your confidence- once you get one daygame lay from a white girl all this discussion will seem like nonsense

when i got my first two daygame lays a lot mentally changed- i no longer had any limiting beliefs but i needed those lays to instil the confidence within me . If you don't get them you will forever be a victim of Richard Cooper et als marketing and doing analytical nonsense loopholes trying to justify your own failures - i spent a lot of my life like that from 13-21 believe me if i had gone out and just done 100 sets by myself it would have been far better use of my time and would've yielded a lot more success luckily i made the switch in the late 20s

 

[Swati]

You have a very negative outlook and looking at it from a metric and math perspective. What are your intentions here whine and get some sympathy.

You talk about east asian being low in social/sexual value in asia?! are you fucking serious? Dude before you blame your ethnic look in the mirror first, compare yourself to other more handsome "east asians". Don't go projecting your false reality in the world. I don't want dive too deep into this. There's PLENTY of "WHITE" dudes not getting laid. THEY blame the asian PUA for "stealing" their women.

Middle Eastern men and South Asian men have easier times getting white women than East Asian men in general.

Stupidest fucking comment I've seen and wrong.

one wingman from Hong Kong who dominated much more so than my white wings

+1

 

[AbWongX]

You have a very negative outlook and looking at it from a metric and math perspective. What are your intentions here whine and get some sympathy.

You talk about east asian being low in social/sexual value in asia?! are you fucking serious? Dude before you blame your ethnic look in the mirror first, compare yourself to other more handsome "east asians". Don't go projecting your false reality in the world. I don't want dive too deep into this. There's PLENTY of "WHITE" dudes not getting laid. THEY blame the asian PUA for "stealing" their women.



Stupidest fucking comment I've seen and wrong.

+1

Swati, I understand your anger and I apologize if my previous comment came across as whining or seeking sympathy. That wasn't my intention. I'm simply trying to understand the dynamics of the American dating market and how my race and other physical attributes should impact my chances of success.

To clarify, I never said that East Asian men are low SMV IN ASIA. I was specifically referring to the American dating marketplace, where I believe there are significant racial biases against East Asian men, particularly when it comes to attracting blonde white women.

And yes, I've actually seen plenty of taller, more handsome East Asian dudes on YouTube and TikTok complaining about the same thing. They talk about how white girls often reject them. And they invariably end up settling for FOBs or Asian American women. Kevin Kreider is a prime example. The dude is a tall not-so-ugly Asian-American model and he doesn't get any white girlfriend. Maybe they lack game, maybe they don't, but the fact remains that they're facing similar challenges because they are East Asian.

I admit that I probably put white girls too much on a pedestal. It's hard not to when you see white women who are arguably more beautiful than any Asian woman I've ever dated in Singapore. But that doesn't mean I should be ignorant to the struggles of other men, regardless of their race.

You're right, my comment about East Asian men being worse off than Middle Eastern and South Asian men in terms of their ability to get young white women was stupid and insensitive. I apologize for that. I should have more empathy. Every race and ethnicity of nonwhite men faces its own unique challenges in the dating market.

I appreciate this post, Swati. I do need to be more mindful of my words and more understanding of the struggles faced by other men. Thanks for calling me out on my mistake.

 

[Gorili]

@AbWongX,

Maybe they lack game, maybe they don't, but the fact remains that they're facing similar challenges because they are East Asian.

As you probably know, correlation does not equal causation. There are many factors that affect success. But if you're going to attribute them prematurely to something that you can't change like your race / ethnicity, to use a metaphor, the battle is lost before it's fought. Harboring such negative attitudes will not be beneficial in-field, and will seep through in your interactions with women. This inferiority complex has got to go.

Frankly, these tall blonde white girls in California seem like a completely different league (in terms of SMV, approachability, beauty) compared to any Asian girl (of my own ethnicity - chinese) I've ever dated in Singapore.

They honestly are not. They have insecurities like everyone else. Not sure where you're getting these ideas from. Again, you're pedestalizing them before even having talked to any one of them.

I'm surprised this point hasn't been mentioned yet: California is very diverse and accepting of people from different racial / ethnic backgrounds compared to other places. It's like one of the most diverse states in the country. It isn't Maine, where it's 90%+ white. There are mixed couples from all types of backgrounds walking down the street in CA. You'll see once you get there.

Once you're in California, why don't you start posting some field reports, so we can all take a look? Until then, most of this is just theory talk.

It's hard not to when you see white women who are arguably more beautiful than any Asian woman I've ever dated in Singapore. But that doesn't mean I should be ignorant to the struggles of other men, regardless of their race.

I've met girls from Singapore before. Most of them were cabin crew / stewardesses affiliated with Singapore Airlines. Another was getting a JD at one of the top law schools. I've found them to be pretty attractive as a bunch.

Finally, you're going to an American college. You know how colleges frame this to incoming students? College is supposed to be a special place for people to experiment and forge unique memories that they can't find elsewhere. Take advantage and don't put it to waste

 

[isildur1]

Swati, I understand your anger and I apologize if my previous comment came across as whining or seeking sympathy. That wasn't my intention. I'm simply trying to understand the dynamics of the American dating market and how my race and other physical attributes should impact my chances of success.

To clarify, I never said that East Asian men are low SMV IN ASIA. I was specifically referring to the American dating marketplace, where I believe there are significant racial biases against East Asian men, particularly when it comes to attracting blonde white women.

And yes, I've actually seen plenty of taller, more handsome East Asian dudes on YouTube and TikTok complaining about the same thing. They talk about how white girls often reject them. And they invariably end up settling for FOBs or Asian American women. Kevin Kreider is a prime example. The dude is a tall not-so-ugly Asian-American model and he doesn't get any white girlfriend. Maybe they lack game, maybe they don't, but the fact remains that they're facing similar challenges because they are East Asian.

I admit that I probably put white girls too much on a pedestal. It's hard not to when you see white women who are arguably more beautiful than any Asian woman I've ever dated in Singapore. But that doesn't mean I should be ignorant to the struggles of other men, regardless of their race.

You're right, my comment about East Asian men being worse off than Middle Eastern and South Asian men in terms of their ability to get young white women was stupid and insensitive. I apologize for that. I should have more empathy. Every race and ethnicity of nonwhite men faces its own unique challenges in the dating market.

I appreciate this post, Swati. I do need to be more mindful of my words and more understanding of the struggles faced by other men. Thanks for calling me out on my mistake.

Wasn't the opening speaker of the 21 convention a short asiaN? Dj Fuji he was 5 ft 8 and ended up dating an attractive american girl

https://imgur.com/a/CN0SPxJ

This guy was 5 ft 8 living in California and ended up in a 6 year LTR with a beautiful woman- he has good fashion and is looksmaxing with what he can control. He also did like 4 speeches for the 21 convention and was a success - yes he faced a lot of blow outs and rejections as he documents but he kept at it- which in this game counts for a huge amount.

"Nonwhitemen face challenges" as a non white man with Hong Kong and Indian Singapore wings who's done daygame for 5 years i call bullshit as i've seen plenty of non white men do extremely well . Looks like you're looking for excuses not to approach and put your ego on the line because you seem to be ignoring the examples people have given which proves what you say is bullshit- you should have a more positive persepctive on this because youre just looking for every excuse

Dj Fuji is a dating coach shorter than you and asian living in the same part of america as you and still succeded
Kong arguably faces more disadvantages than you (I'd rather be middle class Singaporean than Middle Class Vietnamese any day of the week) and he still got a hot girlfriend who i went to the trouble of posted to prove youre wrong.
Yad was short - fat , kurdish iranian and he still got results judging by what my friends who winged with him said.
Literally 2 of the people who featured on Tom Torero's daygame documentary were short and Asian one of whom was living in Singapore and they got results


Looks like you're looking off one off complaints on instagram by ethnic minorities and using them as an excuse to be lazy and not take action. If thats you're mindset then you don't deserve to date a woman .

And on the face of it you seem to a middle class Singaporean living in the California i'd say that puts you in the top 10 percent of men socio economically in the whole world. 90 percent of men in the world (most likely more than this percentage ) have it tougher than you so be greatfull for what you have - there are many men born in the slums of India or Pakistan that would kill to be a middle class Singaporean living in California . Yet you're scrolling on youtube looking for excuses

Every man faces dating challenges- i've been out gaming with tall white male models and seen them getting blown out 10 times in a row. Does that give white people the excuse to complain that no one likes them? Every daygamer or man dating is going to face a barrage of rejection regardless of their race and ethnicity. I've seen Plenty of good looking people get humiliated and blown out does that mean they should now go on men's internet dating forums and start complaining or do they suck it up and carry on and realise that regardless of their smv or value there will always be challenges in their dating live

Your attitude stinks - and i say that in an honest way its only going to hold you back why would anyone wanna be your wing if you hold such a defeatist attitude? You need to realise it's just going to cost you in terms of wingmen and women in the future if you have this mindset. This doesn't mean being mindlessly positive - but presenting excuses and ignoring the data when that excuse has been debunked will only leave you stuck and frustrated.

 

[isildur1]

You have a very negative outlook and looking at it from a metric and math perspective. What are your intentions here whine and get some sympathy.



You talk about east asian being low in social/sexual value in asia?! are you fucking serious? Dude before you blame your ethnic look in the mirror first, compare yourself to other more handsome "east asians". Don't go projecting your false reality in the world. I don't want dive too deep into this. There's PLENTY of "WHITE" dudes not getting laid. THEY blame the asian PUA for "stealing"
their women.



Stupidest fucking comment I've seen and wrong.

+1

does this guy have low status? Singapore is arguably the strongest passport on earth and one of the richest economies in the world and he lives in California. The fact that he can afford to study abroad easily puts him in the top 5 percent of people on earth in terms of wealth and status- Other than his height its hard to see major disadvantages versus the majority of men on planet earth.

 

[isildur1]

I can appreciate the examples you have given! While they're quite encouraging, I'm specifically concerned about shorter (5'9.5") East Asian (chinese) men like myself, not Middle Eastern or South Asian guys. No offense, but I believe that Middle Eastern men and South Asian men have easier times getting white women than East Asian men in general. And Roosh is tall (6'2"), which makes a difference.

As for Kong, are those American women white and conventionally attractive? "American women" is a broad term, and I'm specifically interested in white girls. I'm a Singaporean-born Chinese guy, basically a FOB, with zero experience dating white girls. Frankly, these tall blonde white girls in California seem like a completely different league (in terms of SMV, approachability, beauty) compared to any Asian girl (of my own ethnicity - chinese) I've ever dated in Singapore. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I'm pretty skeptical if I could ever be on the radar of these tall blonde women, especially with the competition from tall white men with that white male privilege. And then there's my accent... Let's just say I don't like having this chinese-singaporean accent.

I'm trying to be realistic, not negative. I'm optimistic about my chances, but also aware of the potential difficulties, especially as a Chinese-Singaporean man with a weird accent trying to date white women in California. Thanks for the interesting response.



Chase, you have a good point. I've been spending too much time online red pill and black pill stuff. Seeing those real lay reports from Proper and Swati should be a nice counter-balance.

I'm going to take your advice and focus on improving the fundamentals and talking to young blonde white women in real life even if I'm a 5'9.5" chinese guy with a shitty accent and I feel like they are beautiful goddesses that are out of my league. But I admit I do feel inferior. I mean, I was reading stuff about Elliot Rodger. The guy was half-white, decent looking (in my opinion) and American-born, and he still couldn't get white girls in California. It makes you wonder, if even more privileged guys like him struggled, what chance do I, a non-western-born chinese guy with a weird accent, have? Regardless, I should not feel sorry for myself and making excuses. I'm going to go for white women anyways.

Thanks for the wake-up call, Chase. I'm taking the real red pill and stepping into the real world. Wish me luck on my progress.

with these examples its important to clarify several things

most likely you have no idea how many approaches these males who've struggled with white girls have made- did they open 2-3 or did they open 200-300 - you have no idea. You are basing your ideas off someone who's situation you are not aware of - in regards to Kevin Kreider maybe he doesn't want to date white girls or maybe his game sucks or maybe he hasn't opened enough white girls to find ones that like him- In regards to dating coach Dj Fuji he was an short American Asian dating coach who approached 1000s of white women and he got success so why don't you focus on him instead of a male actor whom you have no idea how much effort he puts into dating anyways.

Then we have Kong who is short and Vietnamese- low and behold he had a hot American girlfriend surprise surprise because he was consistent and putting in work.

You don't like your Chinese accent then invest in elocution lessons - that can be fixed easily. I dont get the excuse at all.

If a male good looking guy struggles does that mean every other inferior man should quit? Everyone has relationship problems, famous athletes, movie stars , businessman get divorced and endure relationship failure- does that mean i should give up on dating? Tom Brady is multi millionaire and he got divorced should i now not approach anymore? Elon Musk got divorced guess there's no hope for me anymore! lolz im not a billionaire how can i date someone Zayn and Gigi Hadid broke up i guess if a male 10 breaks up with a girl theres no hope for me as im less good looking see what i am doing? A successful soccer player got divorced - guess i shouldn't open that set in the shopping mall because a more successful person on planet earth had a problem in his dating life therefore my probability of succeeding is now 0 because if people who are better than me have issues then that means i have no chance for success even though theres examples on the internet about people inferior to me having success i guess i can just use a whataboutism and complain on a dating forum to people instead .

i am applying the same ridiculous logic to you - using someones situational difficulties as an excuse for inaction- it's sounds retarded because it is .

and i can say that as an "ethnic minority" I am of Iranian ancestry born and raised in London dual nationality - maybe some women may have blown me out because of my race but who honestly gives a shit- women are allowed their preferences. Why don't you just use a more positive reframe - instead of 5 Ft 9 Chinese Singaporean studying in California - 5 Ft 9 Male with the strongest passport on planet earth from one of the most exciting entrepreneurial cities on earth studying in one of the nicest places on planet earth not many men in the world have that privilege - and you're unique in California - from one of the coolest places on earth i am sure there are many white women that would enjoy the rush of dating a Singaporean - that part of the world is a crazy cool place to be from surrounded by the likes Malaysia and Indonesia i am sure that adventure would be great for a lot of white women . See i haven't changed your situation i've just put a more positive spin ahead of your negative spin.

And are you in a disadvantaged situation - if you were 5 ft 9 born in rural Cambodia , Vietnam or Laos then i'd have genuine sympathy with your situation but the fact that you're from one of the richest nations in Asia and studying in the US makes me think you have no real excuses against the majority of men in the world- as i said before in terms of socio economic status you're minimum top 5 percent of earth in terms of males -therefore i believe 95 percent of men on planet earth have more right to complain about their situation then you do

 

[isildur1]

There’s always variances to successes either way you look at it - I know men with a lot more disadvantages than me who crushed the game way more than me - whether that was because they had a more optimistic vibe or were just generally more hardworking and ambitious when it came to dating - I also know people who have better SMV and looks than me who went on to achieve pretty much nothing in dating due to their limiting beliefs or over reliance on dating apps or their complete inability To do any approaches so it’s swings and roundabouts .


There will always be people with more advantages than you struggling and there will always be people with less than you crushing it - as long as you’re not born in deep rooted poverty like somewhere in Cambodia, Rural Africa or Pakistan as examples then you really don’t have an excuse . There are millions of people in the world that will look at your situation and will be extremely envious - some men are born into poverty and will need to stay there for the rest of their lives through no fault of their own- just thank whoever that you’re not one of them and that you can game in one of the richest places in the world in California .


Bringing race and ethnicity into is just another excuse- The Iranian Sam Asghari broke up with Britney Spears recently does that mean as a lesser attractive Iranian it’s over for my dating life? Because another Iranian model is having a bad relationship issue doesn’t really mean anything to me- I can only control my smv and the sets I approach and make sure I do the best possible job I can do. Whether you're a male 1 or a male 10 there will always be issues and challenges - SMV decreases the probabilities of them occurring but EVERYONE will face them eventually.

 

[AbWongX]

There’s always variances to successes either way you look at it - I know men with a lot more disadvantages than me who crushed the game way more than me - whether that was because they had a more optimistic vibe or were just generally more hardworking and ambitious when it came to dating - I also know people who have better SMV and looks than me who went on to achieve pretty much nothing in dating due to their limiting beliefs or over reliance on dating apps or their complete inability To do any approaches so it’s swings and roundabouts .


There will always be people with more advantages than you struggling and there will always be people with less than you crushing it - as long as you’re not born in deep rooted poverty like somewhere in Cambodia, Rural Africa or Pakistan as examples then you really don’t have an excuse . There are millions of people in the world that will look at your situation and will be extremely envious - some men are born into poverty and will need to stay there for the rest of their lives through no fault of their own- just thank whoever that you’re not one of them and that you can game in one of the richest places in the world in California .


Bringing race and ethnicity into is just another excuse- The Iranian Sam Asghari broke up with Britney Spears recently does that mean as a lesser attractive Iranian it’s over for my dating life? Because another Iranian model is having a bad relationship issue doesn’t really mean anything to me- I can only control my smv and the sets I approach and make sure I do the best possible job I can do. Whether you're a male 1 or a male 10 there will always be issues and challenges - SMV decreases the probabilities of them occurring but EVERYONE will face them eventually.

Isildur1, I appreciate your responses, but frankly, they're not very inspiring to me. Kevin Kreider's experience, for instance, just reinforces my fears. Yes, the guy is an Asian-American male model and he literally talked about being attracted to white women and how he asked some white girls out in his high school and college years, only to be rejected. He even mentioned getting rejected on dating apps like Tinder by white women. This ultimately led him to date an Asian woman who is less physically attractive than him, which, while perfectly fine for him, doesn't address the challenges faced by Asian men specifically seeking white girlfriends.

And while the Iranian celebrity's breakup with Britney Spears might be noteworthy, it's not comparable to the sexlessness experienced by many East Asian men in America. The Iranian celebrity is tall and very good looking and has achieved a level of success that many Chinese men would kill for.

By the way, I recently came across this interesting guy on Instagram, Lincoln Zhang. He's a 6'3" Chinese man with a beautiful blonde white girlfriend. Honestly, his girlfriend is like a 9/10, one unicorn tier dream girl for me. And let's be honest, she is blonde and better looking than the girlfriends of any of those Asian PUAs you see online. This example suggests that height and muscle might be one key factor for East Asian men seeking blonde girlfriends. Heck, maybe if I was 6'3" and spent a few years hitting the gym and the steroid clinic, I might be close to Zhang's high SMV and attract and date young blonde women of that level.

But I wonder if I need to be that tall and fit, as an FOB Chinese student in the United States, to even have a chance with someone like her. It feels like an impossible standard to reach.

So, I'm left wondering, what's a 5'9.5" skinny-fat Chinese guy like me supposed to do in practice?

Should I start saving some money and looking into limb lengthening surgery and double jaw surgery and steroids before trying to approach any attractive blonde (or brunette or redhead) woman in the US? Is that the only way I can overcome these potential obstacles? I personally would not mind going this risky way if it really increases my chances of success with attractive blonde American women.

I need practical strategies, actionable steps that take into account the realities of being a shorter, Chinese man with a weird accent entering the competitive dating scene in California.

I'm not looking for platitudes or irrelevant examples or sympathy. I need concrete advice that acknowledges the realities of my personal situation and offers a path towards achieving my goals.

 

[topcat]

Should I start saving some money and looking into limb lengthening surgery and double jaw surgery and steroids before trying to approach any attractive blonde (or brunette or redhead) woman in the US? Is that the only way I can overcome these potential obstacles? I personally would not mind going this risky way if it really increases my chances of success with attractive blonde American women.

4 pages of this and he’s right back to leg lengthening..

Just do it bruv

 

[AspiringStoic]

4 pages of this and he’s right back to leg lengthening..

Just do it bruv

Haha exactly. Man this forum has some absolute saints.

I cannot believe Chase and so many others are still writing long posts in reply to this guy. That alone deserves some awards for social service.

I admire the patience of these guys. Especially considering the fact that, it does not seem to matter at all what anyone says. Talking to this guy is like talking to a brick wall. Frankly, I think we have a better chance of persuading the brick wall to change its mind than this guy.

Lets all be honest, even when you fully believe that Game works, Game is hard enough to learn. For someone like this who is pushing back this much despite what everyone is saying, this guy has almost a zero percent chance of undertaking this journey.

 

[bgwh]

Isildur1, I appreciate your responses, but frankly, they're not very inspiring to me. Kevin Kreider's experience, for instance, just reinforces my fears. Yes, the guy is an Asian-American male model and he literally talked about being attracted to white women and how he asked some white girls out in his high school and college years, only to be rejected. He even mentioned getting rejected on dating apps like Tinder by white women. This ultimately led him to date an Asian woman who is less physically attractive than him, which, while perfectly fine for him, doesn't address the challenges faced by Asian men specifically seeking white girlfriends.

And while the Iranian celebrity's breakup with Britney Spears might be noteworthy, it's not comparable to the sexlessness experienced by many East Asian men in America. The Iranian celebrity is tall and very good looking and has achieved a level of success that many Chinese men would kill for.

By the way, I recently came across this interesting guy on Instagram, Lincoln Zhang. He's a 6'3" Chinese man with a beautiful blonde white girlfriend. Honestly, his girlfriend is like a 9/10, one unicorn tier dream girl for me. And let's be honest, she is blonde and better looking than the girlfriends of any of those Asian PUAs you see online. This example suggests that height and muscle might be one key factor for East Asian men seeking blonde girlfriends. Heck, maybe if I was 6'3" and spent a few years hitting the gym and the steroid clinic, I might be close to Zhang's high SMV and attract and date young blonde women of that level.

But I wonder if I need to be that tall and fit, as an FOB Chinese student in the United States, to even have a chance with someone like her. It feels like an impossible standard to reach.

So, I'm left wondering, what's a 5'9.5" skinny-fat Chinese guy like me supposed to do in practice?

Should I start saving some money and looking into limb lengthening surgery and double jaw surgery and steroids before trying to approach any attractive blonde (or brunette or redhead) woman in the US? Is that the only way I can overcome these potential obstacles? I personally would not mind going this risky way if it really increases my chances of success with attractive blonde American women.

I need practical strategies, actionable steps that take into account the realities of being a shorter, Chinese man with a weird accent entering the competitive dating scene in California.

I'm not looking for platitudes or irrelevant examples or sympathy. I need concrete advice that acknowledges the realities of my personal situation and offers a path towards achieving my goals.

Ironically she's a mid chick who dyed her hair blonde. I know looks are subjective, but calling her a nine is quite the stretch. You seem to have obsession with hair dye.

 

[isildur1]

Isildur1, I appreciate your responses, but frankly, they're not very inspiring to me. Kevin Kreider's experience, for instance, just reinforces my fears. Yes, the guy is an Asian-American male model and he literally talked about being attracted to white women and how he asked some white girls out in his high school and college years, only to be rejected. He even mentioned getting rejected on dating apps like Tinder by white women. This ultimately led him to date an Asian woman who is less physically attractive than him, which, while perfectly fine for him, doesn't address the challenges faced by Asian men specifically seeking white girlfriends.

And while the Iranian celebrity's breakup with Britney Spears might be noteworthy, it's not comparable to the sexlessness experienced by many East Asian men in America. The Iranian celebrity is tall and very good looking and has achieved a level of success that many Chinese men would kill for.

By the way, I recently came across this interesting guy on Instagram, Lincoln Zhang. He's a 6'3" Chinese man with a beautiful blonde white girlfriend. Honestly, his girlfriend is like a 9/10, one unicorn tier dream girl for me. And let's be honest, she is blonde and better looking than the girlfriends of any of those Asian PUAs you see online. This example suggests that height and muscle might be one key factor for East Asian men seeking blonde girlfriends. Heck, maybe if I was 6'3" and spent a few years hitting the gym and the steroid clinic, I might be close to Zhang's high SMV and attract and date young blonde women of that level.

But I wonder if I need to be that tall and fit, as an FOB Chinese student in the United States, to even have a chance with someone like her. It feels like an impossible standard to reach.

So, I'm left wondering, what's a 5'9.5" skinny-fat Chinese guy like me supposed to do in practice?

Should I start saving some money and looking into limb lengthening surgery and double jaw surgery and steroids before trying to approach any attractive blonde (or brunette or redhead) woman in the US? Is that the only way I can overcome these potential obstacles? I personally would not mind going this risky way if it really increases my chances of success with attractive blonde American women.

I need practical strategies, actionable steps that take into account the realities of being a shorter, Chinese man with a weird accent entering the competitive dating scene in California.

I'm not looking for platitudes or irrelevant examples or sympathy. I need concrete advice that acknowledges the realities of my personal situation and offers a path towards achieving my goals.

You’re literally ignoring part of my posts to suit your victim hood agenda - I gave you two examples of short Asians who succeeded in the dating market in the US - Kong from simple pickup and Dj Fuji who was a 4 time 21 convention speaker. I even uploaded pics of people whom they dated . What more proof do you need exactly? Kong who was simple pickup ceo was by far the most viral dating product and pickup influencer on the planet at one point and dj Fuji’s speeches have 100s thousands of reviews

You don’t even listen to the advice given- I said if you have issues with your Chinese accent hire an elocution coach or get more English / American friends and speak more with them so you can pick up there accent .

If you’re skinny fat then hit the gym and get a female friend to dress you and fix your style these things are in control. Why are you mentioning the random failure stories of Asian men when there are countless success stories out there but I guess they don’t suit your agenda as you’re ignoring them .

Yad was short fat and Iranian/Kurdish yet he still did well again you repeatedly ignore that proof of evidence

Then you made up that East Asians have it harder than south Asians and middle easterners you’re just making crap up.

If that’s your attitude and you’re actively ignoring advice off people you’re either trolling or you don’t quite frankly deserve to date well. How on earth will you find good wingmen if you’re this defeatist about everything no man is gonna wanna wing with you and no woman is sure as hell gonna wanna date you with a mindset like that . You’re either trolling or just seriously lazy. Even if you were a male 10 with an attitude like that to dating you’d have a seriously tough time - daygame requires an elite mentality not someone who’s turning down advice and making excuses at every corner .

you're thinking of taking steroids before approaching? Are you trolling ? Steroids can have serious long term side effects and can accelerate ageing.

"Frankly not inspiring to me" if you need to be spoon-fed or your ego massaged to convince you to improve then its over for you. Without a can do attitude you won't survive .

 

[isildur1]

Haha exactly. Man this forum has some absolute saints.

I cannot believe Chase and so many others are still writing long posts in reply to this guy. That alone deserves some awards for social service.

I admire the patience of these guys. Especially considering the fact that, it does not seem to matter at all what anyone says. Talking to this guy is like talking to a brick wall. Frankly, I think we have a better chance of persuading the brick wall to change its mind than this guy.

Lets all be honest, even when you fully believe that Game works, Game is hard enough to learn. For someone like this who is pushing back this much despite what everyone is saying, this guy has almost a zero percent chance of undertaking this journey.

Game works well but it requires elite work ethic and mentality. If anyone is looking for excuses or repelling information that disproves thier limiting believes then they're fucked. Male 10 or male 1 theyre fucked. I've gamed with many male models who had a shit attitude and they crumbled bad and underperformed - mentality is at least 50 percent of game imo.

yeah this forum is full of helpful people and a lot of people take advantage of that either by trolling or just acting lazy/victimlike and mundane - harsh as it sounds some people just deserve their failure and they seemingly lack the attributes to be a good boyfriend or Fuck buddy anyway.