- Joined
- Dec 20, 2012
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- 839
English is my second language what is a hobgoblin?? No hablo inglés... thanks in advance
English is my second language what is a hobgoblin?? No hablo inglés... thanks in advance
I think we're talking past eachother a bit here. Let's reset.
It seems like your point is the following:
1. Some girls are 'alpha widowed'
2. Beta guys (at least some of them) don't want these girls because they're problematic in some way
3. Therefore these beta guys are looking for a way to detect these girls and filter them out
Is that correct?
even the title is something I've never talked about.
The beta providers should be afforded informed consent.
I dislike the term beta as well. I only adopted it because everyone else here was using it. I personally prefer AFC as well. I come from the MASF days.@bgwh,
What should the title be?
The second sentence in the OP was this:
The most direct thread title might be:
Should Beta Providers Be Informed When They Are Marrying Sluts?
Or just make it a statement:
Beta Providers Should Be Informed They Are Marrying Sluts
But then you get into a whole hypothetical argument: who should be doing the informing? Will there be laws? What's the enforcement look like? What steps do you take to avoid false positives?
(then we can get into all kinds of zany solutions. Personally, I'd be happy to take on the role of Slut Detective: "Don't worry, Mr. Smith. I'll find out if this one's a hussy or not for you. If all else fails and the leads turn cold, I'll take the ol' wine her & dine her approach -- if her legs stay closed for ME, I can personally GUARANTEE you your fiancée's no tramp!")
The original sentiment seems to come from an idea of fairness, which is ultimately a moral sentiment.
(it also tells us a bit about your likely politics!)
I figured "is it wrong for non-players to marry sluts without knowing they're sluts?" was the most direct statement of the morality there.
Maybe "Is it unfair" would be more accurate.
btw, I despise the sweeping term 'beta' for non-player men.
In the old seduction community we used to use the term 'Average Frustrated Chump' or AFC.
That was way more accurate than the overly simplistic alpha-beta dichotomy that dominates popular thought today.
Back then we had AFCs, bAFCs (below AFC), wbAFCs (way below AFC), PUAs (pickup artists), mPUAs (master pickup artists)... I think there was something in between AFC and PUA too, but it's evading me for the moment.
It's a lot easier to have sympathy for AFCs when they're just a stage in your progression as a man. Keep working at it and you can go from AFC to PUA.
The alpha-beta thing leads to a lot of posturing and othering. "Haha, I am an alpha; look at those puny betas!" or "It's so sad for the betas; alphas are so cruel, careless, and unfeeling!"
The level of conversation is just a lot lower anywhere alpha and beta are being bandied about (except in the contexts in which they are ethologically correct; e.g., alpha male husband with beta female wife or beta male husband with alpha female wife; alpha male of a group of friends; etc.).
Chase
It's a lot easier to have sympathy for AFCs when they're just a stage in your progression as a man. Keep working at it and you can go from AFC to PUA.
The alpha-beta thing leads to a lot of posturing and othering. "Haha, I am an alpha; look at those puny betas!" or "It's so sad for the betas; alphas are so cruel, careless, and unfeeling!"
The level of conversation is just a lot lower anywhere alpha and beta are being bandied about (except in the contexts in which they are ethologically correct; e.g., alpha male husband with beta female wife or beta male husband with alpha female wife; alpha male of a group of friends; etc.).
Chase
It can be hard to wrap your head around as a guy because we value looks so highly, but women place significantly more value on a man's behavior in their mating decisions. Men will do this for relationships, but even for casual sex, women evolved with thirty two thousand times more time investment from a pregnancy than men, so they place a lot more stake in your overall caliber as a man. What she verbally says will also not always be true compared to how she actually acts.Chase, thank you for your new perspective on the terminology, and I agree that the AFC/PUA spectrum offers a more dynamic view of male development. However, I'm not convinced that the transformation from AFC to mPUA is equally accessible to all men. Looks, money, and social status matter. A lot. And let's not forget, race is a HUGE part of that "looks" equation. Just my opinion, but I assume that it would be easier for a man to transform from an AFC to an mPUA if he is tall, white, good-looking, rich, and/or has status.
While I've had some personal success dating Chinese women in Singapore, I'm personally a bit apprehensive about moving to the United States and entering the dating scene in California. I've heard that white women in the USA, especially in a place like California, might be quite different. For example, I've read and heard they can be more demanding and have extremely high standards. The competition seems to be fierce, especially with those 6'1" pretty white boys you see on TikTok and/or YouTube with chiseled jaws and blue eyes. I'm just a 5'9.5" Chinese guy with a weak jawline and a wide nose. Realistically, how can I compete with that? It sometimes makes me feel inadequate and question my chances with white women. My race is a fundamental part of my appearance, and it's something I can't change.
I'm a fan of this former-PUA-turned-Christian named Roosh, and I've read his books and articles, and even he admits that the game is harder for minority guys (e.g., Chinese, Indian) who aren't tall and don't fit the Western ideal. And I think it was Rollo Tomassi, the godfather of the 'red pill', who really hit me with a dose of real 'red pill'!? He talked in one of his writings about how many East Asian and Indian incels in the West struggle because, let's face it, they're often seen as unattractive within the dominant Western culture. He implied even with "game," it might not be enough for many Asian men to overcome those deeply ingrained racial biases in white women. That really made me feel a bit depressed.
Even if I master the game, even if I become a smooth-talking Chinese mPUA, will it really be enough to overcome the inherent biases and preferences ingrained in American society? Can "game" really conquer racism in young white women and help a 5'9.5" Singaporean-born-Chinese guy get a pretty white girlfriend when his race is a major factor in how he's perceived? I'm skeptical , but at the same time I'm willing to learn new things and unlearn wrong things.
And even in the scenarios where game might work, it seems to only be effective on white women who have been with multiple sexual partners if Roosh is right about the limitations of game. The virtuous white women, the ones who value commitment and traditional values, are immune to these manipulative tactics. They see through the bullshit and seek genuine connection, something that "game" can never provide. And I wonder if their conservative values might lead them to prefer dating within their own race and avoid a nonwhite man like me.
So, Chase, while I admire your optimism and belief in the transformative power of "game," I'm afraid that for Chinese guys like me, the odds are stacked against us. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm just an inexperienced, insecure Asian AFC who puts white women on a pedestal, but I'm starting to think that the "red pill" is just a bitter pill to swallow for those of us who don't fit the mold of the Western ideal. Maybe I should just resign myself to finding a Chinese woman in my birth country like all my male ancestors and many family members did, but honestly, that thought doesn't fill me with joy. It feels like settling, like giving up on a dream before I've even given it a real shot. Yeah, I, on a subconscious level, think some white women are the closest to genetic perfection at least looks-wise.
If I haven't seen even one example of one man like me - a not-so-tall, Chinese FOB - finding happiness with the kind of white woman I desire, does that mean that it's impossible? Could I potentially become an outlier - the first Chinese FOB to date and marry a young attractive white woman - a pioneer of some sorts in California? Or am I being completely unrealistic?
Chase, you're a tall white man who's likely had success with young white women. I'm a Chinese man who's been told by many of my own race [including one grandfather] that my dream of attracting and marrying a young white American girl is delusional. American people do not find Chinese men attractive. These Americans only tolerate Chinese women. Apparently, I should just stick to my own race, they say. Is it wrong for me to pursue this dream, even when faced with discouragement and seemingly insurmountable odds? Is it noble to strive for something that others deem impossible, especially when my race is a major factor in how I'm perceived? I'd like to hear your perspective on this.
Sorry for this long, potentially analytical, out-of-topic rant. Just needed to get that off my chest.
The issue with the idea that "if AFCs weren't AFCs, they could be players, so all good" is that it doesn't scale.
You can't have a society where everyone is a player, for the very simple reason that modern society is built upon exploiting non-players who bust their ass off to impress girls with success. Heck, the reason we're not in the stone age is because of AFCs inventing things to impress chicks. If they had game they wouldn't bother.
You can only have players if the majority of guys are AFCs. The only reason you can be a player, is because the entire pyramid is supported by AFCs. The only reason players get to have their fun, is because society brainwashes guys into being AFCs.
"I have no empathy for the victim of brainwashing, because I escaped the brainwashing, and they could too". Actually no, if everyone escaped the brainwashing the whole system would collapse. You can't have chicks sneaking off to have their fun with the player while the AFC supports it, if there are no AFCs.
Chase, I agree that I need to gain more field experience before making definitive conclusions. You're right, a lot of my anxieties are mostly based on conjecture and what I've read online. I'll definitely try to keep an open mind and not let my biases cloud my judgment when I'm actually out there interacting with white women. And I think you are genuine and not blowing any smoke here.@AbWongX, I know you have a lot of apprehensions, but so far this stuff is all just conjecture in your head. You need field experience.
Also, because you are going in with your mind already potentially made up, you are going to need to be especially attuned to not letting your own biases color your interpretations of events: "That white girl rejected me. I knew it. It's because I am Asian."
So far you've dismissed what the other guys and I have told you here. Average Asian or Indian dude vs. average white dude, trying to pick up a white girl? Yeah, the Asian/Indian dude is going to have it harder (though not 100% of the time. There are chicks with interracial preferences, chicks who are curious about trying something different, chicks who are into international guys, etc.).
But an mPUA Asian or Indian trying to pick up a white girl? Excellent odds. I already told you some of the best PUAs I knew in SoCal were Asian. One of them was very short with a heavy Chinese accent.
But maybe you think I'm blowing smoke? Dunno...
...
Yeah, AFCs are all going to be elon musks, even if they get laid on tap. That doesn't go against everything we know from 300,000 years of humanity, but nice try **pat on the head**lol who lies more men or women?
Weird thread
Is it wrong that guys lie to women constantly all the time just to fuck? JMULV'S entire pickup is about lying. Men and women lie to each other. I know a boomer who told me about how he lied to a nurse at a party back in the 60s about being a doctor to fuck her and it worked. Politicians lie, everybody lies. That's how things go
Don't agree that society would collapse if everyone became a player lol. You think Elon would rather try to pick up girls in bars than go to Mars? once you have you have a system that works you move on. The entire history of civilization is built on cultural monogamy where every guy basicallly had a woman and pumped out like 7 kids. If anything men having more sex would be a good thing, one less thing to stress out about.
I've known plenty of 'chads' who were miserable. One guy in particular would say that after he finished up with a girl he had to go back to his shitty life.
Beyond sex you need to figure out a way to get your life and finances sorted and try to create a lifestyle that makes you happy. Girls are only one part of that. It take's a long time to figure everything out. Getting puss isn't going to pay the bills, you're going to spend more time at your job than you are being a player.
It's not about being Elon, it's about doing something with your life for reasons outside of sex. What do you think "afcs" were doing 300,000 years ago that was so degrading? Working nightshifts in a cave? There were no jobs back then. If everything men did was directly for women, there wouldn't be guys who obsessively compete in things like chess where there's no pussy at the end of it. You don't need to be Elon to keep working hard at something when yiure no longer competing for women. Plenty of guys in wheelchairs who work hard despite not having a dick. "NOT EVERY AFC IS GOING TO BE HAWKING NICE TRY". Stay mad bud.Yeah, AFCs are all going to be elon musks, even if they get laid on tap. That doesn't go against everything we know from 300,000 years of humanity, but nice try **pat on the head**
Put a different way, the only reason the secret society exists is because it is secret. It's based on a foundation of lies and deceit. For the secret society to exist, there has to be majority of AFCs that are misled about female nature.I think you're having a bit of a double standard there. The beta providers should be afforded informed consent.
Does a chick have a right to go get a bunch of hot experiences, and then go settle for a guy she would have never given those experiences to? OF COURSE. If he's fine with it, that's between the two of them.
The issue is where women lie about it and hide their past. That's not informed consent. Women often make excuses like "but if he knew the truth, he wouldn't be with me". Sure, but that's not an excuse for lying.
Guys who are excluded from the casual dating market have every right to exclude those same girls back once these girls are like "ok, time to get serious". It's tit for tat. Girls excluded them for casual, they in turn have every right to exclude them for long-term stuff.
Doesn't matter if you or girls agree with that decision, the fact is that those guys have every right to have that rule or boundary. And lacking informed consent is not cool, it's tantamount to fraud. And of course girls are biased towards "boring providers shouldn't exclude me, so therefore it's ok to lie". Who doesn't want to have their cake and eat it too. Everyone does. Get the best of both worlds? Sign me up! "I want to get the best of all worlds" is still not an excuse for lying.
We all as adults have to make tradeoffs and look at pros and cons. In what other area is "But I must get the pros of all options, so it's ok to lie" a justifiable option?
Ok you're right. Society would look exactly the same if all men got pussy on tap.It's not about being Elon, it's about doing something with your life for reasons outside of sex. What do you think "afcs" were doing 300,000 years ago that was so degrading? Working nightshifts in a cave? There were no jobs back then. If everything men did was directly for women, there wouldn't be guys who obsessively compete in things like chess where there's no pussy at the end of it. You don't need to be Elon to keep working hard at something when yiure no longer competing for women. Plenty of guys in wheelchairs who work hard despite not having a dick. "NOT EVERY AFC IS GOING TO BE HAWKING NICE TRY". Stay mad bud.
Gay men work the same dead ass "afc" jobs despite having zero need to impress women while having ass on tap.