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Científico

Cro-Magnon Man
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Hi fog, thank you as always for your insight.

So. Close. Almost there. I find when you get girls asking you these types of questions late in the interaction, you are 2/3 of the way there with them. Just need to handle it correctly (attainability is important here) and an escalation window opens up.
Interesting that you bring up attainability. Despite rejecting me for a second date, she was very open (in fact, almost eager) to telling me why. One of the things she said to me was that me disqualifying myself as a boyfriend made her want to avoid further escalation. I wonder if there is some validity to what she is saying. If there is, what is the best way to manage attainability in this situation? What are the optimal answers to these questions?

One observation is that you did not introduce any sex talk - which probably put a dent in the seduction.

I agree here. Normally I try to run 1-2 of the sex talk routines from Alek, during the first venue. In this case I just overlooked it. I need to be more consistent about this.
 

Científico

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
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483
Lately, I have felt very drained from work most moments. Especially this week. I've been in my home neighborhood now for over a year since COVID started, and there are days when I really feel it.

My cold approaching is been very very low volume. I just can't often muster the energy often to hit the field just for approaching women when I've got so much going on with work, the gym, and other responsibilities. I do take advantage of occasional opportunities.

Luckily the dating apps are getting better, I'm always handling multiple leads now from that. Clearly Bumble is the best app. The girls are the most attractive for sure, and they message you first so it self-filters for the most interested ones. Coffee meets Bagel is decent, so is Facebook dating. I'm not on Hinge yet but I will be once I get six pictures I am 100% happy with. Tinder is mostly garbage.

I know I am not putting in my 100% though. I feel drained. I really need a break where I can focus 100% on having fun, dancing, travelling, and chasing tail. There is something to be said for the "free" lifestyle of not having a normal job. Travelling all over the world for months. If I didn't have a normal job I could pack my bags and leave right now.

But, I also like having money. And normally my job involves travel anyway, it's just that the stupid virus put a damper on it. At my current role the geographic area I cover is small, but I could easily move to another company with a larger territory to cover (national, or potentially international) if I wanted to. I just really like many aspects of my current company right now. And I've been at shit companies before, which makes me hesitant to change.

I am planning my travel for 2021. I have a bit of vacation time saved up from the COVID year. Currently I am thinking it will involve Medellin for 1-2 weeks (first time in Colombia). And, in a separate trip later in the year, central Mexico also for 1-2 weeks. With dance festivals as additional parts of these trips of course.

I am taking a few days off late in May for the first dance festival in over a year. I am trying to shave off just a few additional pounds of body fat to really be shredded for this event. But the caloric deficit is smaller, no need to be as severe as during the COVID Winter. The hard work is done.

I am really enjoying the interaction with the "Feisty Vegan Dancer" mentioned in my earlier post this week. We planned a second date but it is still over one week away. I reengaged her today over text to keep her warm. She replied fast, and with a lot of investment. What is it about this woman? I am waiting for some obstacle to appear.
 

Científico

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
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LR - Horny Wine Aficionado

Going to write another mini report about this lay here.

The remarkable thing about this one is, that this was a flaky dating app lead that I was able to turn around with an audio message. I moved her off the app to text, and she stopped responding. I quadruple texted her over the following week, still no response. I decided to send the following as an audio message:

“Hey X, hope your day is excellent. Look, I know we’ve only chatted very briefly over text and over a dating app, however I got a very good vibe from you initially, and I like to go with my gut instinct. I know we’re both busy people, but I’ve got some time this weekend if that works for you for a drink or a quick coffee. This will also be my last message to you. So, let me know.”

This turned her from cold to hot, literally, overnight. I got a three paragraph text from her late that evening about how she was taking a break from the apps because it was overwhelming and I got caught up in that decision, but that she would love to get a drink with me. Following this it was easy to set up the date.

Initially she suggested a place far away, but with only a tiny bit a pushback "Asking "Is this your favorite bar"" I was able to set it up to a place with favorable logistics. It was a nice lounge/wine bar/restaurant about a 5 minute walk from my apartment.

She shows up on time. Initially I kinda feel an awkward vibe to the conversation. The truth is, I dont have a super lot in common with this chick. Clearly she likes to drink a lot, her diet isnt great, and she isnt a dancer. The conversation almost starts in interview mode, and I'm thinking that this date might very well end with nothing. But as the alcohol starts flowing things loosen up a bit. I go into the "8 different orgasms" routine and this succesfully shifts the frame to a sexual one which persists throughout the rest of the date. She goes on about how I'm a typical man that is "mansplaining" about how he thinks he knows more than women know about themselves. She also goes on about wacky theories about how there are actually more than 8 orgasms and that women can orgasm while giving birth.

After two rounds I lead her out of that bar and back to my place. Initially she thought we were going to a different bar. But as is typical with women, she followed my lead. I lead her to the rooftop at my place, put on music and wine. She is clearly enjoying it. Go for the kiss and she kisses me. I can tell she is ready to rock and roll after about 30 min, so I lead her back down to my place. We go on the balcony and it's clear it's time to escalate.

I put my hand up her dress and penetrate her. She is wet and likes it. I continue to escalate, start kissing her legs, thigh, and then go down on her vagina. After about 2-3 minutes she goes "I don't normally get off when a man eats me out, only penetration". Of course this is my cue move her to my bed, she complies, and the rest is history.

This girl really did only care about the sex. We had a few rounds. Afterwards she had very little interest in cuddling. She did not want to dance to the music I was playing at all. Kept to herself, but definately made sure to finish ALL the wine I poured her. I almost felt used for sex!!
 
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Beam

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Dude, nice job on turning that around after the quadruple text. I'll be stealing that message ;)
 

foggy

Modern Human
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If there is, what is the best way to manage attainability in this situation? What are the optimal answers to these questions?

best way to manage attainability in this situation is to be exactly what shes looking for.. and if you're not sure what she's looking for, then wide, flirty frames work:

Girl: what are you looking for?
Cientifico: chemistry

Girl [late interaction]: do you have a girlfriend?
Cientifico: not at the moment :)

Girl: what kinds of girls do you date?
Cientifico: all kinds of girls. but only ones i find engaging
suggested reading
 

Científico

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
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Went on a Bumble date with another unremarkable girl. This one of Nigerian origins. She is good looking, but also extremely ordinary. She was not DTF on date #1 but with proper follow up I think I she could be by date #2.

Maybe I am just pickier about my women, and dating apps aren't delivering in terms of quality like cold approach often does.

My real problem: I need to get the fuck out of here. It has been far too long.
 

Científico

Cro-Magnon Man
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FR++ Feisty Vegan Dancer: Date #2

High investment from her setting up date #2 over text. She had to reschedule but she wrote me a long text explaining why, and was eager to reschedule for a few days later.

She also drove to me, which is at least a 90 minute drive for her. So that does show investment on her part.

My plan for the bike ride + food on my rooftop went without much problem at all. We did the bike ride, hung out at an intermediate location (she finally allowed me to kiss her there), then came back and ate food on my rooftop and danced to music. Went back down to my apartment briefly but blocked my escalation attempts.

More conversation about sex throughout the date, I called her out on it since she was legitimately the one bringing up sexual topics quite often. But, she definately has this "I need to be courted" mindset. She even told me this out loud. Implying that women today do not know their worth, that they are giving it up too easily, that men should chase and pursue. I need to think about how to counter these frames in the future. The sexual tension from the dancing and the kissing was not enough.

She didn't even always comply with even simple requests like dancing to a song, clearly just to fuck with me and test me. I called her out again, saying that I can tell that she likes to test men.

She did say she wants date #3, and again suggested that intermediate location from date #1. I shut that down quick and told her I'd drive to her next time. She agreed.

I need to think a bit about how I'm going to do this potential date #3. If sex doesn't happen, this will get stale very quick.
 

foggy

Modern Human
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yo this girl is putting up a fight with you due to a mismatch in expectations. she wants something more than meaningless sex...theres this side of her that craves the rush of falling in love and the bliss of a new, exciting connection... but she is sensing you purely want her for sex, so she is testing u like a mofo!

there was a really helpful piece of advice i soaked up from glow... "go for the girl, not the lay". when i started applying that, it changed my mindset... allowed me to better connect with girls...sex is just an inevitable side effect of a strong connection with a (your!) girl. the barriers go down.

oh, also. when are you coming to colombia?
 
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Científico

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
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Messages
483
Approached this stunner outside of my apartment building yesterday. Another vegan. We vibed and I got the digits.

During the initial texting it's become evident that we live in the same building. Potentially awkward situation. Question is: do I pursue? I dont like to "shit where I eat", as they say.

However, this girl is ridiculously attractive. So I'm thinking yes unless anyone wants to try to convince me otherwise......
 

Científico

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
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Messages
483
yo this girl is putting up a fight with you due to a mismatch in expectations. she wants something more than meaningless sex...theres this side of her that craves the rush of falling in love and the bliss of a new, exciting connection... but she is sensing you purely want her for sex, so she is testing u like a mofo!

there was a really helpful piece of advice i soaked up from glow... "go for the girl, not the lay". when i started applying that, it changed my mindset... allowed me to better connect with girls...sex is just an inevitable side effect of a strong connection with a (your!) girl. the barriers go down.

oh, also. when are you coming to colombia?

Clearly she is still interested as she is still showing very high investment over text with immediate replies. No doubt she is waiting for me to set up date #3. I think I will tomorrow.

I like her a lot too. She is putting me on a hormonal, emotional roller coaster like girls used to do more often when I was younger. It's fun most of the time in between the periods of frustration. Women like this are rare now.

But I don't think I'll see her again if she continues to put up barriers to intimacy post date #3. Just not a way for a man to live.

My mind is busy constructing all the possible scenarios and conversations that could happen on this date.

I really appreciate your comments as always @fog. I sent you a DM about Colombia.
 

Científico

Cro-Magnon Man
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As general update on me, things are good. I have a lot of leads, mostly from dating apps as I have not done too much cold approaching, primarily due to work and just being tired of my current location (which will soon change).

Speaking of work, tumultuous stuff happening. I cannot really get into details on here, but suffice it to say, with uncertainty comes opportunity.

It's also clear that I can further improve my dating app game with the right photos, so I'm still working on that and without a doubt I can do even better. Quite pleased with the better results I am getting.

Within the next few weeks, my travelling plans to go to different locations south of here will start. I am allowing myself to eat more (10% body fat all the time isn't sustainable - probably 12-13% is optimal) and I think this will increase my muscle gains and my libido. A lot of dancing to be had and a lot of women to meet.

Update on the "Feisty Vegan Dancer" -

It's been a few weeks since the last meet, and we are planning to meet again this Saturday. Unfortunately she showed some behavior I did not like yesterday.

I've pinged her once or twice the last two weeks to keep her "warm" until our planned 3rd date this Saturday. She always responds immediately, but never initiates any contact. I tried to call her last night, and she didnt pick up but replied via text saying she was at dinner. Then she said she would call later.

She never did. I left it alone and gave her 24 hours, then started the following exchange:

Cientifico: Someone hasnt called me yet....
Cientifico: -4 points
FVD: Haha
FVD: Oops
FVD: Call now?
Cientifico: Yep
FVD: Give me a minute

10 min later she calls. In the beginning it was a bit of a balancing act of me letting her know my displeasure without acting too butthurt. I do like the "points" system I learned from Tom Torero for this. However I did call her out directly. She told me she forgot, which is actually a bad sign.

However, she did confirm the date and said she was still available. As always it's up to me to plan everything, so it'll be an outdoor thing, then a vegan place, and then I made it clear I wanted to go to her place to "see her pet birds" (she apparently has many). She tells me - "absolutely not, my house is a mess". I continued to persist talking about my former pet bird that recently died, and we settled on me "maybe" meeting the birds outside of her place. That is good enough for now.

We'll see what happens. Like I stated earlier, I'm really not going to spend any more mental and emotional energy on this one if I don't get the kind of relationship I want.
 

Científico

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
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"Feisty Vegan Dancer" Update -

I guess somewhat predictably, this third date was over before it even started. She texted me yesterday and told me she doesn't see a point in meeting anymore since she is moving far soon (something she mentioned a few times the last time we met). This might have some truth, but I strongly suspect other things might be going on, potentially another guy since it was very clear she was out there dating from multiple online sources. Needless to say, something caused her desire for me to drop precipitously after the second date, also evidenced by her behavior above.

I persisted a bit, and she was responding until she went cold. At that point, I waited the entire day, finished work I had to do and in the evening when she still had not responded, I threw in the towel and agreed with her, complemented her but mildly scolded her for wasting my time, and left her long response on read.

Like I said, this one somehow took me on an emotional ride in a way that few women do. And that right there is a problem - with her I was back in the scarcity mindset, instead of the normal abundance mindset. I am learning a lot from this one as I think on it, and I believe there were some frames she was setting in the very beginning that I actually did not do a good job countering, contrary to what I said earlier.

This one hurts right now a bit, but I will get over it soon. I always do.

FR - Sexy Moldovan

After I finished dealing with FVD above, I went on a date with a moldovan woman I met on Facebook Dating. It was nice to have his lined up last night right after dealing with FVD's shit.

There was a minor frame battle over location, she suggested halfway and I agreed - my current policy with women that throw this objection and I cannot easily overcome it. She lives forty minutes away, I picked a place in an intermediate location about 20 minutes away from both of us. It was a classy lounge bar with a live guitarist, actually ended up being a great venue that I will keep in my back pocket for women in her direction.

As is typical with online, her pictures did not do super accurately reflect the real life woman. She was sexy and had a great body which was not indicated in her photos.. Possibly a minor boob job. But she was clearly older than her photos, and has a kid (2 years old) at home. As soon as she walks in it was a very flirty interaction, she was very touchy and often touched my hands or my arms herself. Strong eye contact, no problem putting her face close to mine and letting that sexual tension build.

Good banter, she was asking me a lot of questions about my dating history and what I'm looking for, and calling me out for my evasive answers. I also qualified her, possibly not enough though. There are problably a few things I could have done better.

I kept it to one venue because of the logistics, we just walked back to the parking garage together afterwards and again the sexual tension was there, but she told me "I'm not kissing you tonight" when I put my face close to hers. I replied "who says that's what I wanted."

We will see if I get date #2. This one will have favorable logistics or it wont happen at all.
 

foggy

Modern Human
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she was asking me a lot of questions about my dating history and what I'm looking for, and calling me out for my evasive answers.
are you saying she was asking you these questions and you gave her evasive answers? and at what time was she asking? early, mid, or late in the interaction?
 

Científico

Cro-Magnon Man
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are you saying she was asking you these questions and you gave her evasive answers? and at what time was she asking? early, mid, or late in the interaction?

I would say it was mid-interaction. And eventually I did give her a semi-serious answer because she was pressing so much. Since last year I have been of the mindset that being too serious in answering these questions, especially too early, puts one in the "boyfriend" frame too easily, I think from one of Chases articles actually. Let me know if you have a different perspective

At the beginning of the questioning it was kinda like this:
Sexy Moldovan: What kind of women do you like to date? What are you looking for?
Científico: Nice booty. Cooking ability. Can you cook Tofu?
SM: Haha I have never cooked Tofu. What are you really looking for?
Cientifico: Do you work for the FBI? Is that why I am under interrogation?
SM: I just want to know.
Científico: Tall, blonde and skandinavian (different from her, deliberately).
SM: Haha, that is not me at all then.
SM: Come on, seriously.
 

foggy

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Cientifico:
Since last year I have been of the mindset that being too serious in answering these questions, especially too early, puts one in the "boyfriend" frame too easily, I think from one of Chases articles actually. Let me know if you have a different perspective

The key point he was making is that being too matter of fact when answering these questions is what kills you - not being too serious. That's because it removes the mystery and puts you at high risk of a mismatch in frames between you and her... shes looking for this, you're looking for that.

Being evasive to avoid the matter of factness when answering these questions is causing you to lose girls. When girls like MOLDOVAN and FLAMENCO are quizzing you on your dating history and intentions, they are looking for attainability from you. Being evasive tanks your attainability, resulting in resistance.... and ultimately, rejection.

It's an easy fix. Don't avoid these questions - instead, answer them directly with a wide, flirty frame to manage your attainability during this checkpoint:

girl: what are you looking for?
cientifico: chemistry

girl: what kinda girls you like?
cientifico: all kinds of girls - especially ones who are pretty and engaging

Nail this part with the next few girls and she'll let you escalate on her
 
a good date brings a smile to your lips... and hers

Científico

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
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Being evasive to avoid the matter of factness when answering these questions is causing you to lose girls. When girls like MOLDOVAN and FLAMENCO are quizzing you on your dating history and intentions, they are looking for attainability from you. Being evasive tanks your attainability, resulting in resistance.... and ultimately, rejection.

Thanks man. I wasn't necessarily putting together the connection between Flamenco Girl and this one until your first response to my last update, in that they were using very very similar lines of questioning, only at different phases in the interaction.

In fact, that is one thing Flamenco Girl explicitly told me on the phone after the date. That the reasons she doesn't want to go further are a.) boyfriend, and b.) my answers to these questions. I should listen.

It is interesting that these girls are asking these questions lately.

Thanks for your feedback.
 

Científico

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
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Dec 20, 2018
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483
Fitness

Like I stated before, I have recently come to the conclusion that 10% body fat is not a sustainable place to be all year around, after looking into the subject. In fact outside of a photoshoot, it is a significant trade off as while you look very shredded with a shirt off, you don't look nearly as big when you have clothes on. For this reason I am letting myself eat a lot more to get back up to 12-13% body fat (still super fit), but still tracking to see how much it takes to get there. It'll be an experiment to see how I look/feel with just a few more pounds of fat on my body. I also believe I might see an increase in my libido, which is another reason why I am trying this.

According to my estimates I am eating slightly over 3000 calories a day right now. High in protein and I'm getting in over 200 grams a day, all plant-based sources like Tofu, Seitan (Wheat Gluten), and pea-based protein powders. I have a smaller frame than the average guy, so it is questionable if going so high in protein is necessary, but I like to make these fruit smoothies now in which I grind up banana, avocado, and berries with plant-based protein powder to make a nice 500-600 calorie shake for breakfast. But I still have not gained weight at all. Training hard at the gym and going most days, and making gains with some of the weight I'm able to lift, but not in all exercises. I'm only in the first week of really allowing myself to go so high in calories, and I will likely be trying this for at least a few weeks (or shorter if I gain too fast, then it's just fat and not muscle).

Dancing

I won't reveal too much on here, suffice it to say there are a few very nice female specimens in this dance company. I need to read up a little bit on social circle game.
 

Científico

Cro-Magnon Man
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483
FR - Number from Street Approach

This is a textbook example of my direct daygame process, based on the so-called "London DayGame Model", working well. I saw this woman hanging out by the parking garage where I normally park my car in my neighborhood, dirty blonde hair, turquoise sweater, blue jeans, multi-colored mask on. I decide I'm going to approach.

I open direct, tell her she looks nice, and stack with the turquoise sweater telling her it "reminded me of water in the Caribbean". She does not hook right away so I stack again accusing her of working for the government. Still no hook so I do my best bantering and being playful (wish I had the recording, but alas I do not). Then I try to close, get the boyfriend objection. I throw the standard responses at her, telling her I do not want to be her boyfriend, have a rigorous application process for that, and that I can text her now and in six months and and she can decide if she wants to respond.

This causes her to shift a bit, tells me "you drive a hard bargain.....ok, what's your number". After the number exchange, she finally hooks, asks me a bunch of questions about me and what I do. I tone the vibe down and tell her about my job. Then we part ways. She has responded to the icebreaker text, which is half the battle, so now I can do the texting dance to try to get her out on a date.

Daygame number closing stats pretty good

I have not done many approaches in 2021, however my number close rate is about 30%. This is based on data I have personally collected and compiled. Mostly direct approaches. Thus direct works well for to at least get leads if I put in the volume.

When I start to travel and I'm actually on vacation, I'll really focus on doing some indirect approaches in the same location with different routines, and comparing with direct, like I was planning to earlier this year. It will be interesting to see if there is any difference in outcomes.
 

Científico

Cro-Magnon Man
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LR - Redhead Dancer

I'll be writing this brief LR from an undisclosed location/event away from my normal base of operations.

Met this one at a pre-party taking place at a bar. From the moment we started dancing it was on. She was very sensual/helping build sexual tension in the way she was dancing with me, which telegraphed to me that this woman was more likely to be receptive to me attempting to seduce her. This appears to be key to fast pickups when it comes to women in the dance community - if they let you build a high amount of sexual tension during the dancing, essentially by not moving their face away when you come in close, almost kissing but not quite, it means they are more likely to be "rock and roll" girls.

She definitely has a bit excess body fat, especially around her booty. But it was her face, and the way she looked at me and smiled at me, that turned me on.

I tried to pull right there at the bar by asking her if she wanted to get out of there. She knew exactly what I was trying to do. It was a "I know that you know that I know" moment. She told me she came with her roommate but that she would text me later, I get the phone #. We parted after that and I went to go interact/dance with some other women, and after a while I noticed she was no longer in the bar. I was afraid I had lost the opportunity. However, once I leave the bar with some friends I spot her talking on the phone outside. I approach and she asks me where I am going/touches me with her hand, tells me she is just catching up with a friend. Game on.

There was an after party going on in someone's hotel room. I tell her I'll text her and meet her there. She says ok. We meet at this party, dance, and then chat/build comfort some more at a balcony connected to the room. At first it was a group conversation on the balcony with others which transitioned into a one-on-one conversation away from the others. I pull again from the balcony and she accepts, we leave together quickly - she doesn't bother saying goodbye to people and neither did I. Again, I think she wanted this to happen, but discretely.

Once at my room (conveniently close to the party room) it was easy to make stuff happen. The moment we finally kiss was very passionate, and hot, because it was a release of all that tension from earlier. A glimmer of LMR when I went to her nipple, which dissipated once I took my hard dick out.

Post sex, asked her the normal question - when did you decide you were going to fuck me. She tells me in the room. Maybe this is when her conscious mind decided to as a final decision, but she was definitely aiding the seduction and leaving the windows open throughout the entire process.

Other notes:
-- Being fit helps. She commented several times how good I looked.
-- Told me the comfort building on the balcony helped. Says it was clear I'm a smart man, and she has a thing for smart men.
-- Does not believe in monogamy and says we have been sold a lie.
-- Her main concern pre-sex was that it would be awkward afterwards, that the sexual tension would go away and that allowing me to escalate would ruin that dynamic. Luckily this concern was not enough to derail the seduction. But it might be good to keep this mind with other women, as in, introduce the right frames about sexuality to counter this with other women if necessary.
-- Have to move fast and make the ask at the right moment, especially in this "event" situation. Obviously it's best to be at top energy in the early morning hours, especially in an environment like this with 24 hour dancing. Still figuring out how to best manage my own energy levels so I'm not completely beat and tired when it's the best time to be doing fast seductions.
-- It is best to find a girl to focus on and move fast with that one girl. It is tempting in a target-rich environment to go for many women at once, and constantly divide your attention between them, but it ends up backfiring when none of them have enough comfort to actually go back to your room with you. Or worse, other men get in an seize an opportunity before you. This is an art that requires identifying the right opportunity, focusing all of my attention on that one woman for a while (maybe dancing several songs in a row), before making the pull and not allowing distractions to get in the way of that.
 
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