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I’ve actually been moving in that direction lately.
What happens to guys who just don't get it (results with women)?
- Thread starter raiden
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I am still hearing just a victim story here @raiden! You can decide if you want to give that victim story of yours up. You are probably reading this and think to yourself, yeah, but you are not me, I truly am a hopeless case or things like this. But working profesionally with trauma healing I just see the pattern very obvious... Also because what allowed me to become professional in that is that I myself was there.
So you can seek out what is wrong with you and support that belief, but in truth there is nothing wrong with you. I am telling you and I have certainty with this, there is nothing wrong with you. You have some unconscious patterns that are running you, but in truth is serving you somehow, that is why you are holding on to it. When you find out how it serves you, you will see there is nothing wrong with you, you just expected yourself to be someone you are not.
I'd advice you to check out the the gratitide effect and the breakthrough experience from John Demartini. These goes deep into unconscious patterns within the mind that comes from trauma. I can't tell you how many times I and my collegeas have clients that want a partner and I just help them truly become grateful for being single, and at the moment they are grateful with that (and the meaning they attribute to being single), they get a romantic partner within a month.
Once you are ready the teacher appears... But its your job to be ready.
So you can seek out what is wrong with you and support that belief, but in truth there is nothing wrong with you. I am telling you and I have certainty with this, there is nothing wrong with you. You have some unconscious patterns that are running you, but in truth is serving you somehow, that is why you are holding on to it. When you find out how it serves you, you will see there is nothing wrong with you, you just expected yourself to be someone you are not.
I'd advice you to check out the the gratitide effect and the breakthrough experience from John Demartini. These goes deep into unconscious patterns within the mind that comes from trauma. I can't tell you how many times I and my collegeas have clients that want a partner and I just help them truly become grateful for being single, and at the moment they are grateful with that (and the meaning they attribute to being single), they get a romantic partner within a month.
Once you are ready the teacher appears... But its your job to be ready.
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Also I can't tell you how many times I have clients that want a partner and I just help them truly become grateful for being single, and at the moment they are grateful with that (and the meaning they attribute to being single), they get a romantic partner within a month.
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@raiden I had a thought that might help put this in perspective.
Understand, cold approach runs against social and psychological norms. Lack of consummation is the default result. Any kind of success, even a positive no-hook (you’re both better off for talking) is a partial success that’s worth celebrating.
You are not a failure for not getting laid yet from cold approach.
Especially as you haven’t run enough approaches to really learn the ropes, let alone have a good statistical chance of success as a noob!
If cold approach is too emotionally intense for you, get into social circle type stuff, classes etc
Understand, cold approach runs against social and psychological norms. Lack of consummation is the default result. Any kind of success, even a positive no-hook (you’re both better off for talking) is a partial success that’s worth celebrating.
You are not a failure for not getting laid yet from cold approach.
Especially as you haven’t run enough approaches to really learn the ropes, let alone have a good statistical chance of success as a noob!
If cold approach is too emotionally intense for you, get into social circle type stuff, classes etc
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For real though, cold approach is a scrappy artform and is not for the faint of heart. You have to be willing to get out there and get tossed around by the waves a bit. It is kind of like learning to fight. You gotta get beat up a little to learn the skills well. You grow a of thick skin from it all, but it definitely requires a bit of fortitude. Especially in the beginning stages when you are just getting on your feet.
@raiden I actually don't think you are that far from success, but ultimately your victim mentality and whatever is at the root of all the psychological projections you are putting on women and your dating experience is what is standing in your way.
That said, it seems like you actually have a lot of solid elements working for you. You have landed a good number of online dates which indicates that you have some decent texting abilities. At least enough to get a woman out with you (Although I wonder what sort of frames you are setting. Lover frames/Boyfriend frames?). During those dates, you manage get into a good deal of conversation have dates that last a good while. You seem to be good at building comfort with women, at least enough for them to open up with you a bit in convo, and hang around for a solid chunk of time. That means there is some element of them finding interest in your interactions.
My basic assessment (just a theory, would have to actually see you game to know. or have more specific details of dates): During your dates, you are putting yourself into the boyfriend/friend category in her mind. She is probably at first weighing you as potential boyfriend, then she kind of ends up deciding that isn't really what she wants with you. This is happening because of the way you are running your dates. You are having these long drawn-out conversations that focus more on kind of personal life stuff. Your interests, life goals, stuff like that. Don't get me wrong, a touch of these is important to build rapport, but when the date kind of focuses on it it is hard to lose chemistry. There needs to be tension and chemistry.
You need to lighten up, stop putting so much weight on each date and learn to have more fun with it. Tease her a bit more, keep things lighter, more playful. Don't get so caught up in big life things, only touch on those a bit to add depth, otherwise, keep things mostly breezy and fun. Toss in a splash of sexual innuendo to test the waters (do this subtly at first, until you get more and more comfortable testing how much you can pull off).
Focus on having a 3-bounce structure on your dates (tons of info on this forum), to keep the energy moving and flowing. This way you don't just get stuck in low momentum moments that kind of leak chemistry out of the whole thing.
Adjust your goals to be less lofty. Rather than finding a wife, maybe just see if you can make the date about landing a kiss at the end. And if she does kiss you and you don't hear from her, see if you can do it again with the next gal. How many dates can you get to end in a kiss? That's maybe a more doable goal. Forget about the whole life partner thing for now, that will come naturally once you get a bit of momentum going.
Since you already know how to get women out on dates it shouldn't be too hard to have plenty of training opportunities.
Ultimately though, you got to do what it takes to drop your victim mentality and lighten up a bit.
And like @Surveyor points out, don't do cold approach if you are not willing to scrape your knees a bit. There are other, way less scrappy ways to meet women.
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@raiden,
I probably approached 1,200+ girls before I got my first girlfriend.
But I was absolutely terrible socially starting out. I was retarded. And every step forward I had to overcome huge fears of rejection to make the move. e.g., the first nightclub pull I had only happened because the girl texted me asking if she could come home with me after I'd already left (imagine how many girls I'd missed at the point I found that girl by simply not ever inviting women home with me! I learned my lesson after that).
Anyway, the point... you're basing all this off of extremely limited numbers of approaches.
I know, I did the same thing. I was there in college, I hadn't even approached a girl in years, talking to myself about how "every woman has rejected me", "I have tried everything but nothing works", "maybe there is simply no hope for me", "there is no point in even trying, I will just get rejected anyway", etc. I think I had about 20 lifetime approaches under my belt at that point.
For the record, the vast, vast, vast majority of guys get girlfriends way sooner than I did with far fewer approaches. Even most hard-case guys I see are getting girlfriends in 200-500 approaches. I was a special kind of dense when I was new...
Sounds like it's time to build a new social circle then.
You might want to start with Peter's 4-article series:
www.girlschase.com
Or pick up Hector's book... it's on college, but a lot of it is applicable post-college too:
courses.girlschase.com
Well, that's something worth digging a lot more into then:
You've been on 60-70 dates? With girls from online? And messed up every single one? Or did you mistype and meant something else?
If you didn't mistype, that's probably something that deserves its own thread -- because if that is the case, there's likely something a lot deeper going on here than just beginner approach anxiety / rejection sensitivity.
Should be something along the lines of "I've been on 60+ dates with girls from online; here's what my outcomes have been. Here's what a typical date looks like: example. I seem to always lose girls at one of these two places: ABC and DEF. What am I doing wrong?"
It is not game over if you have Asperger's.
Guys with Asperger's have a more frustrating time than most folks (well... maybe not as much as "Beginner Chase" did! But still...).
We have had multiple guys on this forum over the years with high-functioning autism who have successfully bedded a number of girls and had long-term relationships. I believe we have a few Asperger's playboys who are active on the Boards right now, IIRC from some past discussions... I don't want to call anybody out though.
As a non-Aspie dealing with guys who are Aspies, the most frustrating part is that Aspies DO get laid, but frequently are simply never satisfied with their rate/quality. Two fairly prolific Aspie guys I have known with 70+ notch counts would constantly complain about the number of approaches required from them to get a lay (typically 100+ approaches, despite their relatively honed level of game) and the fact that the girls they got were "usually in the 6-7 range with the occasional 8", and also that they were never satisfied with the personalities of their girls, either.
Anyway, if the question is, "Might I have Asperger's syndrome?" here's a good article to read through:
the-art-of-autism.com
I don't have autism, btw, but I still think the guy's answer to #9 on there was perfect.
Chase
I probably approached 1,200+ girls before I got my first girlfriend.
But I was absolutely terrible socially starting out. I was retarded. And every step forward I had to overcome huge fears of rejection to make the move. e.g., the first nightclub pull I had only happened because the girl texted me asking if she could come home with me after I'd already left (imagine how many girls I'd missed at the point I found that girl by simply not ever inviting women home with me! I learned my lesson after that).
Anyway, the point... you're basing all this off of extremely limited numbers of approaches.
I know, I did the same thing. I was there in college, I hadn't even approached a girl in years, talking to myself about how "every woman has rejected me", "I have tried everything but nothing works", "maybe there is simply no hope for me", "there is no point in even trying, I will just get rejected anyway", etc. I think I had about 20 lifetime approaches under my belt at that point.
For the record, the vast, vast, vast majority of guys get girlfriends way sooner than I did with far fewer approaches. Even most hard-case guys I see are getting girlfriends in 200-500 approaches. I was a special kind of dense when I was new...
Sounds like it's time to build a new social circle then.
You might want to start with Peter's 4-article series:
Meeting Women via Social Circle: The Pros and Cons
Note from Chase: This is the first article on Girls Chase by Peter Fontes, a friend of mine and someone I've known for a few years who specializes in meeting women via social circle and in bars and nightclubs. In this article, Peter runs you through the pros and cons of using social circle for...
www.girlschase.com
Or pick up Hector's book... it's on college, but a lot of it is applicable post-college too:
Girls Chase Courses
Place your order for King of College and become the lord of your college social circle.
courses.girlschase.com
Well, that's something worth digging a lot more into then:
You've been on 60-70 dates? With girls from online? And messed up every single one? Or did you mistype and meant something else?
If you didn't mistype, that's probably something that deserves its own thread -- because if that is the case, there's likely something a lot deeper going on here than just beginner approach anxiety / rejection sensitivity.
Should be something along the lines of "I've been on 60+ dates with girls from online; here's what my outcomes have been. Here's what a typical date looks like: example. I seem to always lose girls at one of these two places: ABC and DEF. What am I doing wrong?"
It is not game over if you have Asperger's.
Guys with Asperger's have a more frustrating time than most folks (well... maybe not as much as "Beginner Chase" did! But still...).
We have had multiple guys on this forum over the years with high-functioning autism who have successfully bedded a number of girls and had long-term relationships. I believe we have a few Asperger's playboys who are active on the Boards right now, IIRC from some past discussions... I don't want to call anybody out though.
As a non-Aspie dealing with guys who are Aspies, the most frustrating part is that Aspies DO get laid, but frequently are simply never satisfied with their rate/quality. Two fairly prolific Aspie guys I have known with 70+ notch counts would constantly complain about the number of approaches required from them to get a lay (typically 100+ approaches, despite their relatively honed level of game) and the fact that the girls they got were "usually in the 6-7 range with the occasional 8", and also that they were never satisfied with the personalities of their girls, either.
Anyway, if the question is, "Might I have Asperger's syndrome?" here's a good article to read through:
Top 10 signs you have Aspergers
A humorous look at Aspergers. Englebert updated this blog post in 2021 here. by Englebert Lau What are the top 10 signs you have Asperger’s Syndrome?
the-art-of-autism.com
I don't have autism, btw, but I still think the guy's answer to #9 on there was perfect.
Chase
I've messed up the vast majority. It was something like this. 2017: 20 first dates from online and around 3 went well. 2018: 20 dates from online and all went badly. 2019: Around 10 first dates from online and one, a set up, went well. 2020: around 5 dates from online, and one set up and one went well. 2021: 5-10 dates from online and all went badly. The results are continuing 2022 - 2023: I'm messing up a lot, though I think that my success percentage over the last few months might be around 20%, which would be a record breaker. When I say "went well" I mean that it allowed the possibility of going on more dates and potentially pursuing a relationship. For the women with whom things went well, things didn't work out. Some of it was because some of these women wanted to abstain before marriage and I didn't want to and others were because I didn't find the women attractive. Are these numbers bad or are my expectations too high and they're actually normal?
On a separate note, I think that I must be socially hopeless. Over the past month, I've been on a few singles and speed dating events. I wasn't expecting to necessarily get dates from this, but I went in with the "it's all practice" mentality. At the singles event, I took one woman's phone number and she blocked me after I sent her my icebreaker and follow up message. At the speed dating event, I didn't get any dates but, even worse, a guy who I thought that I had befriended snubbed me by not following up with my phone number too. My former friend told me that he wanted to hang out with me less because I was too much of a downer and depressed so I have gotten rid of all of that. Whenever somebody says something negative, I turn it around to something positive. I try to add humor as well. But in all of these numerous social interactions (maybe 20 new people over these events), I must have rubbed everybody the wrong way. The problem is that I don't know how I am messing up. I don't think that I miss social cues or do any of the things that I saw on the Aspergers YouTube channel. So how do I find out what my issue is or, more importantly, how do I fix myself up socially? I can't hang out with my friends because they're going to stay loyal no matter how hopeless I am. Do I need to go into meetup events and also go out to cafes and bars and "people watch"?
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Messed how?
What were points ok the interaction when things shifted from “this is going well” to “this is definitely not happening”?
A common sticking point that I have noticed in hard cases guys is that they never take the woman perspective in consideration.
It’s all “I am doing the right stuff” and when you dig into it, they are doing uncalibrated things at the wrong times because they are not paying attention to what a girl might be thinking/feeling at the moment.
In other words, they treat dates as tasks instead of interactions with other person.
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for real. OP, despite being asked numerous times by many forum members, has failed to provide any concrete details on the exact nuances of these interactions. Precise information would help us all to offer productive feedback on areas he might be able to improve. Instead, he uses his posts to just bemoan his perceived "hopelessness"
@raiden maybe give us precise details of a few dates that went well but then failed. I mean precise. What was the content of the text message exchanges prior to the date? What sequence of events took place on the date? What were the conversations about? How did each topic progress to the next? What was said at each moment? Were there any palpable shifts in tone and mood during the duration of the date, and when exactly did they occur? What sort of touch was used at each point in the date (for example, did you hug when greeting her on the date, etc) What was the moment things went south? How did you respond? How did you leave the date? If any, what text messages were exchanged afterward?
As long as you only provide us with broad/general/vague details on how your dates have gone, as well as pad your posts with unhelpful information about how hopeless you feel you are, the rest of us here are going to have trouble providing clear feedback on areas we think might help you succeed. Please just walk us through a few dates, from beginning to end, and provide precise technical information on how specific dates went and maybe we will be able to run some sort of diagnostic on where you might be slipping up.
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I actually have some of my in field audio that I can consult to get an idea of conversational topics etc. if I need it. Let me recall a few of my past dates. Please let me know if you need more or less detail or any other information. I'm seeing lots of commonalities between these dates so I'm hoping to change everything with the bowling or crazy golf or activity based dates.
1. Went to eat dinner at an informal cafe type restaurant. We met at the restaurant. Spoke about where we're from and our lifestyles and interests. If I ever run short on stuff to talk about, I know the papers on that "how to fall in love" article. So I can ask stuff such as whether somebody would want to be famous, what somebody's hopes are for the next few years, what kind of things that they look for in a partner (and then when I get the answer I know not to fall into the trap of explaining how I satisfy that description), who they would want to have as a coffee or dinner guest. She was quiet at first but seemed to get more comfortable as the date went on. After the dinner I suggested to go to a bar. We sat down and talked a little more. There, there was some touch and kissing. It looked like logistics were not good and I thought that I had orchestrated a good date so I ended it around 20 minutes after the touching. I didn't want to stay any longer lest I screw something up. After the touching I went back to sitting a bit further away and just chatting in a more relaxed way. On the way to the bus station where I left her, I suggested that we go on another date and she said that it would be good. I didn't get much response from her over the next few months and she recently blocked my phone number. I really felt like this date had been a good one and we got to know each other quite well over the approx 1 hour 45 min duration, so this one left me really disappointed.
2. Dinner date similar to 1. We met at the restaurant. She seemed nervous or not completely comfortable and conversation didn't flow as smoothly as I had wanted. I wanted to replicate date 1 and go to a bar but she said that she had to go home soon. So I asked her to go for a 15 min walk around the area and I'd show her the body of water nearby. I took her to walk and then she had to get going. She texted me that she didn't think that we were right for each other.
3. Dinner date similar to 2. She was very talktative so I let her talk. I told around 3 jokes and made her laugh a little. I tried to suggest the idea of taking her to have another drink of wine but she said that she had to get going. So we left the restaurant together and said our goodbyes.
4. Coffee date with a nerdy woman. We met at the metro station and went to a kind of cool cafe, walking along near a cool canal area on the way. We were talking about lots of nerdy stuff e.g. benefits of sleep, high intensity interval exercise and why we liked our jobs. I asked her what kind of guys she usually dates but I didn't get a straight answer, so I supposed that she hadn't really had a serious boyfriend before. She didn't seem to enjoy any of the touch that I tried very much, mostly on arms, so I didn't do any more. She had to get going to a workout class so I walked her to the area where the fitness centre was after our drink and said goodbye.
5. Coffee date with a nerdy woman very similar to 4. We met at a metro station and tried a few cafes but they were full. Then we found a good one and sat down. Spoke about stuff similar to 4. I remember that this woman was interested in the ramifications of AI for the future of society. I found it quite interesting too so I spoke about it a lot. This, I guess, was an unproductive topic to talk about. She also repeatedly kept telling me that what I was saying was interesting, so I didn't stop talking about the scientific stuff. The date lasted around 1.5 hours and then we walked back to the metro station and said goodbye. I thought that this had gone well and actually felt good about myself afterwards. When she said goodbye she said something like "see you soon" rather than "nice to meet you" and I took this as a good sign. Anyway I never received a message from her again. I thought that she was busy because she had abnormal working hours but after messaging a few times I realized that she just didn't want any more interaction.
1. Went to eat dinner at an informal cafe type restaurant. We met at the restaurant. Spoke about where we're from and our lifestyles and interests. If I ever run short on stuff to talk about, I know the papers on that "how to fall in love" article. So I can ask stuff such as whether somebody would want to be famous, what somebody's hopes are for the next few years, what kind of things that they look for in a partner (and then when I get the answer I know not to fall into the trap of explaining how I satisfy that description), who they would want to have as a coffee or dinner guest. She was quiet at first but seemed to get more comfortable as the date went on. After the dinner I suggested to go to a bar. We sat down and talked a little more. There, there was some touch and kissing. It looked like logistics were not good and I thought that I had orchestrated a good date so I ended it around 20 minutes after the touching. I didn't want to stay any longer lest I screw something up. After the touching I went back to sitting a bit further away and just chatting in a more relaxed way. On the way to the bus station where I left her, I suggested that we go on another date and she said that it would be good. I didn't get much response from her over the next few months and she recently blocked my phone number. I really felt like this date had been a good one and we got to know each other quite well over the approx 1 hour 45 min duration, so this one left me really disappointed.
2. Dinner date similar to 1. We met at the restaurant. She seemed nervous or not completely comfortable and conversation didn't flow as smoothly as I had wanted. I wanted to replicate date 1 and go to a bar but she said that she had to go home soon. So I asked her to go for a 15 min walk around the area and I'd show her the body of water nearby. I took her to walk and then she had to get going. She texted me that she didn't think that we were right for each other.
3. Dinner date similar to 2. She was very talktative so I let her talk. I told around 3 jokes and made her laugh a little. I tried to suggest the idea of taking her to have another drink of wine but she said that she had to get going. So we left the restaurant together and said our goodbyes.
4. Coffee date with a nerdy woman. We met at the metro station and went to a kind of cool cafe, walking along near a cool canal area on the way. We were talking about lots of nerdy stuff e.g. benefits of sleep, high intensity interval exercise and why we liked our jobs. I asked her what kind of guys she usually dates but I didn't get a straight answer, so I supposed that she hadn't really had a serious boyfriend before. She didn't seem to enjoy any of the touch that I tried very much, mostly on arms, so I didn't do any more. She had to get going to a workout class so I walked her to the area where the fitness centre was after our drink and said goodbye.
5. Coffee date with a nerdy woman very similar to 4. We met at a metro station and tried a few cafes but they were full. Then we found a good one and sat down. Spoke about stuff similar to 4. I remember that this woman was interested in the ramifications of AI for the future of society. I found it quite interesting too so I spoke about it a lot. This, I guess, was an unproductive topic to talk about. She also repeatedly kept telling me that what I was saying was interesting, so I didn't stop talking about the scientific stuff. The date lasted around 1.5 hours and then we walked back to the metro station and said goodbye. I thought that this had gone well and actually felt good about myself afterwards. When she said goodbye she said something like "see you soon" rather than "nice to meet you" and I took this as a good sign. Anyway I never received a message from her again. I thought that she was busy because she had abnormal working hours but after messaging a few times I realized that she just didn't want any more interaction.
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Doing anything to improve your situation , @raiden ?
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One idea: stop the dinner dates and reduce the amount of coffee dates.
Try activity dates instead.
Let us know what your results are.
Another issue is that your conversations are conventional and date-y. They’re not personal enough, and when they are, they’re date-y instead of being gradually intimate and/or eliciting emotions.
You might be coming across as too generic to a girl. Why should she pick you out of the crowd?
You need to build genuine rapport and comfort as fast as possible. The better you know each other, the more likely you are to get sex or at least another date.
The AI conversation was not good for a date (although if you’re chilling with a new gal pal who’s already taken, it can work).
Deep intellectual conversations work if they’re about the right topics. Philosophy, non-controversial society topics, highbrow travel or ethnography (there are so many gambits or just points you can make about other people’s customs
) … common denominator, it has to be personally relevant and get her mind in the right direction (and hopefully yours too, because alignment and rapport will help you work together to get together). Some girls though, it’s better to talk about something lighter but still emotionally valenced.
Also, unusual (but not weird) topic choice helps you stand out from all the other dudes.
Try activity dates instead.
Let us know what your results are.
Another issue is that your conversations are conventional and date-y. They’re not personal enough, and when they are, they’re date-y instead of being gradually intimate and/or eliciting emotions.
You might be coming across as too generic to a girl. Why should she pick you out of the crowd?
You need to build genuine rapport and comfort as fast as possible. The better you know each other, the more likely you are to get sex or at least another date.
The AI conversation was not good for a date (although if you’re chilling with a new gal pal who’s already taken, it can work).
Deep intellectual conversations work if they’re about the right topics. Philosophy, non-controversial society topics, highbrow travel or ethnography (there are so many gambits or just points you can make about other people’s customs
) … common denominator, it has to be personally relevant and get her mind in the right direction (and hopefully yours too, because alignment and rapport will help you work together to get together). Some girls though, it’s better to talk about something lighter but still emotionally valenced.Also, unusual (but not weird) topic choice helps you stand out from all the other dudes.
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@raiden, I'm curious... apart from dating and girls, how do you feel about all of the other aspects of your life? Personally, I've found that it's much easier to do well with women when I'm happy about my life overall, and almost impossible to do well with them when I feel like the rest of my life kinda sucks.
I know it's vague, but that's the only thing that's been consistent for me when trying to diagnose periods of time when nothing seems to work.
I know it's vague, but that's the only thing that's been consistent for me when trying to diagnose periods of time when nothing seems to work.
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@raiden… mhhh, my first thought is that your conversation subjects are too vanilla.
Have you tried talking about borderline sexual topics like massage, crazy parties, travel adventures, the differences between men and women, etc??
Those at least would get more emotional reactions.
Also, you don’t seem to break any rule at all.
A date is an opportunity to show a woman you are a manly man (leader).
Are you leading her into cool activities? Cool conversations? Unexpected adventures?
Otherwise you are just another guy and she probably has two or three of those in her life.
As a side note… from a perspective, it is not that bad that they don’t reply… at least they are not trying to make you their orbiter or friend without benefits.
That means that at least you come up as a self-respected man.
Have you tried talking about borderline sexual topics like massage, crazy parties, travel adventures, the differences between men and women, etc??
Those at least would get more emotional reactions.
Also, you don’t seem to break any rule at all.
A date is an opportunity to show a woman you are a manly man (leader).
Are you leading her into cool activities? Cool conversations? Unexpected adventures?
Otherwise you are just another guy and she probably has two or three of those in her life.
As a side note… from a perspective, it is not that bad that they don’t reply… at least they are not trying to make you their orbiter or friend without benefits.
That means that at least you come up as a self-respected man.
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OP, @ulrich is right. Your vibe seems to be off. Checkout these articles, might help diagnose
www.girlschase.com
www.girlschase.com
Transmitting Bad Vibes; or, Why People May Not Like You
Bad vibes can poison your interaction without you being aware of it. So how do you know if you have a bad vibe problem? And if so… how do you FIX it? Why do some people simply not like you? In this article we’re going to look at a common affliction guys have, which is to misinterpret or be...
www.girlschase.com
What Causes 'Bad Vibes' from People?
Why do some people give out “bad vibes”? What is it they’re doing… why do people react that way… and is there anything you can do to make the bad vibes go? Commenting on my article "12 Mistakes that SCREW UP Conversations & Flirtations", yseult says: Love your explanation on bad vibes. Could you...
www.girlschase.com
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- 839
Still somewhat broad in your descriptions here, but you definitely give us a bit more sense of what we're working with.
So this is the general sense that I am getting about the way these dates going. Let me know how accurate it seems: You meet on a dating app and have a conversation that is decent enough to get her out on a date. Probably a lot of comfort-building conversation, but not too flirtatious. It feels safe, but at least fun enough to give it a shot. You arrive on the date and there is a moment of sort of awkwardness and it takes you a moment to you two to settle into feeling a little more comfortable. You go through a series of somewhat canned questions you feel might generate interesting conversation. After going through the motions of some novel questions, you two eventually land on some more steady conversational topics. They tend to be about kind of everyday things and are generally safe topics of conversation (working out, her job, future plans, and so on). You generally use touch as a way of gauging how she might be feeling. Testing the waters to see how she might respond. If things do happen to be a bit more physical it is all pretty safe. Light touching, some light making out. Nothing too provocative. Date kind of ends with the energy fading out a bit.
Does that sound accurate as a general description of how your dates are going?
My general assessment would be the following
-You are running your dates in a comfortable predictable manner, and the sense of connection is ending up feeling pretty middle of the road because of it. While she might feel comfortable with you and a bit of attraction there is nothing about the way you are interacting that really sets your connection apart from all the other dudes she is going on middle-of-the-road dates with. The good news is that this is all technical stuff that, with a bit of gumption and determination, is easy to fix. That said, as others have pointed out, the real prerequisite to all this is working on your inner sense of self-worth and all that. But we are not going to focus on that. Let's look at some basic technical improvements I believe will liven up your dates.
Date Location
How you were doing it: You have been having very formal/lengthy dinner dates. This immediately puts you in a position that can make sets a more formal date sort of frame/energy to it all. Even if the date was really hitting a peak in energy you have to wait for your food and the bill and so on. Momentum is crucial on a good date and you want date locations that can be flexible when you need them to be. You need locations that offer the opportunity for a spontaneous exit if the mood calls for it.
Your new approach: Chose places that have more room for spontaneity. Don't get caught up in lengthy dinner dates that overly formalize the process and lose momentum.
Date ideas:
Coffee shops
Book Stores
Food trucks
A nice park
A nice shopping center
Boardwalks
Cocktail lounge
Microbrewery
Art Galleries
All of these places offer way more flexibility than a formal dinner date. You can sit down and get into things, or you can pretty easily leave when you hit a high note and explore new places, to keep the energy moving forward.
Flow of conversation
How you were doing it: Your conversations tended to have a sort of formal approach, getting into run-of-the-mill topics, or hot-button cultural topics. You ran each date through a series of quirky, but ultimately not very personal questions without a more overarching conversational thread. You kind of just let the conversation go wherever and just went with it, even if it wasn't conducive to more chemistry. You kept things safe and also didn't reveal too much of your personality in a way that made it hard for her to get a sense of what you are really about. You also played things pretty safe, never really teasing her much or making bold (but calibrated) innuendos.
Your new approach:
You are no longer a passive participant in a conversation that just goes wherever it wants. You are an active leader and director of the conversation.
When the conversation starts to take too serious or formal turns, you redirect it by giving her a moment to say whatever she needs to say then politely moving on. Never getting caught up in overly impersonal or intellectual conversations You make sure the conversation is mostly about things that really light the two of you up.
Spice Things Up
You keep the subjects light and fun and tastefully flirtatious.
You tease her in positive ways, or playfully challenge her (in a light-hearted nonserious way) on things you might disagree with (no hot-button political or social topics though. You are not looking for a debate). One tip for teasing is to tease positive qualities about her.
For example, she is talking about going to the gym a bunch, and you playfully tease her/challenge her like "I'll believe it when I see those guns." You get her to flex for you and give her arm a feel and your like "Damn you're reaching superhero levels"
You throw in occasional innuendos that fly mostly under the radar, but get her thinking "did he really just say that? Don't go overboard but definitely push the limits a little and see how far you can confidently push it.
Deep Dive
You no longer run a bunch of superficial questions that lead nowhere, but instead, allow each subject to really blossom. Diving in on a subject and allowing her to really express herself on it.
*Let's say for example she likes riding horses. Here are a number of questions you can ask or statements you can make that allow her to open up
"sounds like it really gives you a sense of freedom"
"is there anything else in your life that gives you that sense of freedom?"
"sounds like it is a real gift to have that in your life"
"sounds like you've always had a knack for it"
"That must be really liberating for you"
"sounds like you don't get the opportunity to do it as much as you'd like"
"What is the biggest lesson you've learned from riding horses?"
"Sounds like.." remember this phrase because it will help you immensely "Sounds like..." It will help you read between the lines into the subtext of what she is saying.
Or another example, she is telling you stories of studying abroad.
Her: So yeah I was there for about 3 years
You: I can tell that was a really informative time in your life (make a reasonable assumption). You're kind of lighting up talking about it (make a charming observation about her)
Her: Yeah, it was a really cool time
You: What do you think your life would be like now if you haven't gone? Can you even imagine? (ask a personal question that gets her really thinking about her experience"
"I Bet..."
"I bet..." is another great one
"I bet that was tons of fun"
"I bet you never wanted to leave"
"I bet you were ready to be done with it"
"I bet you learned a lot"
" I bet that was a very rewarding"
"I bet..." is good because it makes a reasonable assumption and gives her the opportunity to see how you might relate to her situation if you were in her shoes. It is a confident way to lead the conversation. "I bet..."
If for some reason she doesn't quite agree with your "I bet..." or "sounds like..." statements, thats okay. She will mostly likely clarify herself for you
For example, say she is telling you she just went to a festival
You: I bet that was a blast
Her: no actually it was kind of disappointing this year
You: Disappointing? I thought those things were supposed to be peak party vibes? (leading her to clarify herself)
Her: well there used to be a lot more experiential booths last time. This time there wasn't much and it was just hot and blah blah blah and blah blah (explaining why it was boring)
You: yeah that's disappointing. Sounds like they really dropped the ball. Okay, let's say you can create the ultimate music fest. What would you chose as the main theme? (move convo in a positive direction that allows her to express herself in a creative way)
"What" questions
"What" questions can work really well
"You sound excited. What's the most exciting part?"
"What would be the best possible outcome?"
"What if you just did it anyway?"
"How" questions
"How" questions are also great
"How do you want it to turn out?" (when she is telling you about a project she is working on)
"How did you manage to pull that off?" (when she is telling you about an opportunity she created for herself)
"Hey, this is fun spending time. How about we go for a stroll?"
"Sounds like..." "What..." "How..." "I bet..."
These are three very flexible and versatile conversational approaches that will give her the opportunity to open up and express herself more.
"Sounds like..." "What..." "How..." "I bet..."
* From time to time, relate things she tells you about herself and her experience with your own personal experiences. So, say you gave her an opportunity to share a piece of herself using "Sounds like...." What...." or "How..." and she tells a personal story. You can then be like
"Oh yeah, that totally reminds me of this time I was visiting India, and I had never traveled abroad before. There is such a rush that comes with travel. That moment of stepping into a totally new experience. Thinking about all the unknown potential. It's amazing how much that one single experience really shaped me. Cheers to us having the gumption to seek adventure". This is just one example, during the convo things you relate to will come up naturally.
What is important when you relate to her experience is that you share a little bit of personal information about your experience. Don't be just matter of fact. Share your perspective, your point of view, what things meant to you personally.
This gives her an opportunity to get a sense of who you are. This builds a sense of closeness. Like you two can really relate to each other.
Do this in good measure cause you don't want to overshare or anything. But just be sure to give her a few opportunities to see a little bit more.
Approach her with curiosity. Be willing to make assumptive statements about what you observe. Reflect back on what she tells you in observant ways. Give her opportunities to express things she may not normally have many opportunities to express. Give her the opportunity to get a sense of who you are and what you are about. Highlight your commonalities in relatable ways
Touch
How you were doing it: You are using touch as a way of gauging where she might be at with the interaction. A searching for validation, of sorts. Also giving out touch freely with only a vague sort of intention behind it. It is great you are willing to take this step of touching her, so that is something you have working for you. However, she is most likely sensing that you are touching her just as an attempt to do so, and also using touch liberally without good reason is essentially giving her validation for no good reason.
Your new approach: Only use touch as a reward when she complies with you. That is it. Until there is a ton of chemistry towards the final act of the date, do not touch her for any other reason than to reward her for compliance. When you first meet up for the date, you give her a hug because you are rewarding her for complying and showing up. This breaks the touch barrier right away, which will make it easier to do so again later (always hug her when you first meet up). When you tell her "show me your rings" or "Hey what are you doing all the way over there" (pulling out a closer chair for her) and she comes and sits closer to you, these kinds of moments when you are essentially telling her to comply with a simple action to bring things closer. When she leaves the coffee shop with you to go on a walk you touch her as a reward for complying. These are the moments you touch her. When you do touch her, you do it clearly, and confidently. A firm hand on her shoulder, or her knee, or the swell of her back (whatever move makes sense for the moment). You are not fishing for a response. You are touching her as a reward for good behavior. Once the moment has been clearly felt you retract your touch and move the conversation forward. Do you see the difference? It is easy to touch with direction and confidence when you use it this way. It is not about GETTING a response, it is about GIVING affection for a positive step she took.
To summarize how you will use touch: Sparingly, and only when she complies with a positive forward move. You will touch her with direction and confidence because you are not looking for a response.
Once the energy is really building towards the end of the date you are welcome to use touch more freely and affectionately. Just do not overdo it, always be the first to pull away, and leave room for wanting.
Making moves
How you were doing it: You were making moves, and transitions without a clear intention. You were doing things just because you thought it was what you were supposed to do at that moment, without a good reason to do it. Essentially just ticking off boxes on what you think a good date is supposed to be. However, this doesn't always coincide with the vibe of the date at a given moment.
Your new approach: You only make moves on high points in the energy. You tell her to scootch closer when you two are really laughing about something and the energy is high. You two have been having some really juicy convo and suddenly the mood lightens a bit as you both come up for a bit of air, you suggest the two of you leave the venue to continue the date. You make moves with intention, at a moment that makes sense to how the two of you are connecting. Not just because it is what you think you should do. The mood is high, momentum is moving forward. This is when you make moves.
A word on kissing
I am going to suggest here that you refrain from kissing her until you have pulled her to a location where you can escalate (like your house).
If the vibe is really escalating in the third act before you pull her home, increase your touch and your flirtatiousness, but instead of kissing her at the peak of it all, invite her home. Maybe kiss in the Uber on the way over. But don't drain the sexual tension by kissing her prematurely.
A word on seeding the pull
Be sure to casually sprinkle some information here and there throughout the date that will make it easier to pull her home later (or wherever you intend to escalate). Mention some great new artists you discovered when you bought his book. Or how much you love your tea collection. Anything you can later use to invite her home (or wherever you will escalate).
"well this is definitely fun hanging out. What if we keep it going? we can go break into my tea collection and look at art books" (citing two reasons to go to your place that you had already previously mentioned during your date)
YOUR NEW APPROACH
Look, there are definitely some inner game issues you need to address first and foremost, but the truth is you are not actually all that far from success on a technical level. Woman actually like your company enough to go on dates with you, spend a good chunk of time with you, and even make out with you. These are all positive success. It's just that you have running your dates the same over and over again. Making the same mistakes over and over again, and then lamenting that the square peg won't fit in the round hole. Well, now you can make some basic tweaks and see what new results you might get.
Along with your new approach, you will have new goals
Here are what seem to be some of your old goals:
-Have some sort of sense of validation from her
-Get a girlfriend/ or potential wife
Here are your new goals
I advise you to stick to these goals as the driving factor behind how you run your dates (at least for now)
-Have fun on the date. Aim to let go and just have fun no matter what.
-Create conversations that allow her to open up to you about something that means a lot to her. Not just in a superficial way like she is skimming the surface. See if you can get her to really just express herself and dig in on a topic that is really meaningful for her
-Invite her home when the date has peaked. Note that I am not saying that the goal is to bring her home (that's great if you can). The goal is to invite her home.
These are your three main goals. Notice that none of them are about trying to get something from her, but instead about doing things that are perfectly in your power. Have fun, create convo that allows her to open up, and invite her home.
How you now run dates
Just to summarize this is how you now run dates
-You chose date locations and activities that allow for flexibility and spontaneity
-You confidently greet her with a hug to break the touch barrier and casually and comfortably move the conversation forward without hesitation.
-Instead of canned questions, you pick conversation topics that come naturally to you. Keeping things light and fun. When things get deeper they are about personal things that really light the two of you up. You steer the conversation away from super serious topics, political topics, hot-button social topics, and boring everyday mundane topics.
-You seed the pull by sprinkling in info here and there that will help you suggest going home when the time comes
-You tease her in playful good-hearted ways
- You challenge her on things you don't agree with, but still keep things light. Never falling into an intellectual debate.
-You make subtle innuendos from time to time
- You make compelling observations about her and the things she says ("sounds like...")
-You use touch as a means of rewarding compliance and don't just give it out willy-nilly to where it loses its power
-You let the flow of things be organic and are not just ticking off boxes of what you think should happen
-You make moves during high notes
-You allow the sexual tension to steep rather than letting it dissipate for an easy kiss.
and most importantly you keep your new goals in mind: Have fun, create conversations that allow her to open up, invite her home. If you can do at least two of these you can consider the date a moderate success, all three and you are a winner. And if she does come home with you, well congrats man, make your move.
Even if you don't implement all of this right away, I guarantee you will at least discover different nuances to how your dates go, compared to the same old routine before. You will now have different reference points to work with.
Can you see how this dating outline differs from your approach before?
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- Joined
- Dec 12, 2019
- Messages
- 287
This is such a value filled reply. Everything you need is here.
I would just add ASD busters, literally you just need to say “I hate how when a man sleeps with 10 girls he’s called a king whereas a girl does the same she’s a slut, it’s so unfair”.
This is a lot of information and stuff for me to implement very soon. Thank you. The conversation bits might take me some time to get the hang of and I might initially be led by her on to unproductive topics. But the other stuff is easy to implement. There have been lots of posts advising me but for now I'll focus on this one.
1. Sometimes, the scheduling of the date means that it makes sense to eat dinner together. E.g. We both meet on a weekday evening right after leaving our respective work offices. If I have to schedule a date in a time slot like this, should we be going somewhere like a food court where we can move around and choose where we sit rather than being stuck to a table? The other advantage compared to a restaurant would be that the bill paying can be handled towards the beginning, and another thread here said that this is better.
2. Sometimes the location of the date may be that it's closer to her place than mine. I live out in the suburbs. Should I go ahead and invite the two of us to her place? My goal at the moment is just to make the invitation so I guess that this is ok. Of course, I'll always put the second or third date closer to me, but I know that second and third dates don't usually happen.
Regarding my inner game and general life, it is pretty miserable. I don't think that it's going to change until I get some momentum going with my dating. A few years ago, around 2018 and 2019, everything else was going well. I was making friends, had more money than I could spend, trying new activities and was even doing well with my fitness training. I was still miserable. This is all I want and I have to put in the work now.
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2021
- Messages
- 337
Maybe this is the very problem? It puts a lot of pressure on you to perform and would make you needy, which is counterintuitive.
There is already a lot of good info in terms of process but in order for that to work, you need to completely remove the pressure off of yourself and not be outcome dependent.
See your dates as practice. Like warming up for a good date in future. This will remove pressure off of you.
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2022
- Messages
- 839
Hey, thank you for the opportunity to share my perspective
The first step is just being able to recognize when this is happening. You'll probably already have an intuition for it. You'll be thinking to yourself "Gee, we sure have been on this topic for a moment, it's starting to lose steam, maybe time to segue into another topic" or "Uh oh, this topic feels like maybe it could be dicey territory, let's see if I can steer things in another direction." Just notice these moments.
I updated my last post to include more conversational tips for you to work with. I recommend you give it all a thorough re-read.
You might be surprised at just how easy it can be to lead the convo using some of these techniques
Yes definitely if you both need to eat chose somewhere less formal. Don't go fast-food level or anything. Pick somewhere decent, but where you pay upfront, and can be pretty casual, and quick, or just take the food somewhere nice to sit. Heck, I have even met a girl at whole foods, picked up some sandwiches or hot bar, and then went to sit in a nearby park. Quality street food and food trucks are great. Also, nicer shopping centers with quality food courts.
What exactly are your logistics? How far out of city center/ her side of town are you? What transportation methods do you use? what are good date spots close to you vs close to her? There are a number of factors that might determine the best strategy.
All those questions aside, yes you can suggest the two of you go to her place. You can seed the idea earlier in the date, just like you would if you were pulling to your place. Like if she mentions she is working on a painting you say "You'll have to show me sometime" then later when you suggest the pull you say "Well hey, this is fun spending time, what if we went to yours for a nightcap and you can show me that painting you're working on"
Gather logistics about her living situation during the date, so you have a better sense of how to propose the idea to her later. There is a wild card factor compared to just pulling to yours because you don't know what logistics she might have (like if her place is messy she might be resistant or something) but it definitely can be done. And anyway, if you recall, the goal is just to make the proposition regardless of the outcome.
Look man, this is a way deeper issue, and most of us here aren't really qualified to help you get to the bottom of it. I will say this though, as long as you are trying to fill the void with these things outside of yourself you are going to keep putting up roadblocks for yourself, and the blessings you already have will never be enough. Even when you have a girlfriend. You think that women will fill that void but it is just like the money and friends when things were going well, but you were still unhappy. No matter what woman is in your life you will still have to face the gnawing inner feeling. Do whatever you have to do to face this. Be it meditations, somatic trauma release, counseling, volunteer work, community building, write daily things you are grateful for, or whatever you have to do. I don't know what path you should take. I just implore you to find ways to face it and find help if you need it.
Women can sense when you are projecting all of this onto them and it repels them. She doesn't want to be a blank canvas for some dude to project all his longing onto. She wants to feel like she can share a piece of herself without it getting suffocated by some dudes personal trip.
Instead of thinking what you can get ("I want her to make me feel good"), think about offering her the opportunity to share herself. To express herself.
The rest of game is purely technical, so we got you covered on that end of things.
This is exactly why I suggested his first and foremost goal is to just have fun with it. As long as he is trying new things and experimenting and learning, the date is already a win
@raiden We have given you tons of material to work with. Fortunately, you are good at getting women on dates, which gives you plenty of opportunity to practice.
Note how when you gave us more detailed technical info, we were able to come up with some practical techniques for you to play with.
I recommend you re-read the post where I break everything down, and take some notes for yourself. Then, the night before your date, review your notes and picture yourself successfully using each technique.
After the date, while the details are still fresh, write a detailed field report so can examine what areas you were successful in, as well as offer pointers in areas that could use improvement.
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