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What happens to guys who just don't get it (results with women)?

CharmingPsychopath

Space Monkey
space monkey
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1 lay per 100 approaches and even more is expected for a total newbie who lacks social finesse, who is young, lacks clear value and is a virgin.

Yes, that is to expect from absolute beginners.

It's more complicated than that.

Some beginners get good results - because they're good looking or because they have good social skills, talent, whatever.

And there are experienced "failed PUAs" who are doing this for years, but are getting bad results.

You can’t really grab all experienced/non-experienced guys and put them all in the same bag.

Of course results vary greatly, depending on multiple factors.

“Natural” is the word someone uses to describe another guy that is good with women but the observer can’t explain.

Wrong. A "natural" is somebody who learned seduction in a "natural" way, outside of PUA community. Being able or unable to explain how his game works has nothing to do with it.

A master seducer (someone who studied and understood these seduction dynamics) is usually much better than any “natural”.
“Naturals” usually don’t have the drive to perfect this craft.

You're repeating propaganda...

Best seducers were always naturals. PUAs (especially the big names) were always lying about this, trying to present themselves as the top level seducers - which served their commercial interests. It's sad to see this lie still enduring, after all these years.
 

Will_V

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I decided a long time ago to not even acknowledge claims about seduction that can't be proven. Anyone can say anything and nobody can prove either way. Is it true? Who cares. Is it not true? Who cares. What matters is what each guy can do for himself. The only good information on these boards is information that can be used to improve results.

I remember hearing some of the OGs of daygame, such as Paul Janka, who is a smooth, tall, good-looking dude who spent years honing his craft in big cities, claim around 1 lay in 30 approaches. Is that normal? Is it possible to do better? I don't know and I don't care.

I encourage dudes to focus on themselves and improving their own results instead of comparing against what someone they don't know says on the internet.
 

ulrich

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Best seducers were always naturals. PUAs (especially the big names) were always lying about this, trying to present themselves as the top level seducers - which served their commercial interests. It's sad to see this lie still enduring, after all these years.

I have to disagree in this one.

But let’s expand for the sake of discussion.

Who would you consider the best seducers and why can’t someone who intentionally studied this craft can’t top them?
 

Conquistador

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my friends who get girls naturally also don't do that many approaches at all
Exactly…
Naturals have a completely different characteristic. Generally, naturals are better than PUAs.
By what metric?

In general, controlling for passive factors like looks, status, etc. when “naturals” get better approach-to-lay it’s mainly because 1) they choose their approaches differently and generally more selectively and 2) they’re more likely to be approaching in environments where there is some kind of social frame, or where they know they tend to do well.

Many (not all) so-called naturals would have a lot of trouble adjusting to an adverse and unfamiliar environment.

That said, I do think that part of the issue with PUAs as defined broadly by CharmingPsychopath is that beginners and even sometimes intermediates often don’t develop a proper understanding of various things and instead bypass these weaknesses with tech and mechanics, with variable results. Mechanical models can be extremely useful and powerful. But on their own their value is pretty limited.

The legions of guys looking for quick improvement are not really trying to reverse engineer naturals. They are looking for mechanical solutions, which can often collapse into magical thinking and various other cognitive biases.

Edit: From what I’ve seen (mostly college age dudes), “naturals” are often also much more willing to date further down the looks spectrum.
 
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CharmingPsychopath

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I decided a long time ago to not even acknowledge claims about seduction that can't be proven. Anyone can say anything and nobody can prove either way. Is it true? Who cares. Is it not true? Who cares. What matters is what each guy can do for himself.

Wise words.

Some guys really have amazing results, while many others are liars - which includes some well-known names (who are not on this forum). It's impossible to determine who is who based on somebody's internet image and one should not try.

Who would you consider the best seducers and why can’t someone who intentionally studied this craft can’t top them?

The people I consider the best seducers I've met:

1. Are regularly getting laid with very hot chicks, who I would give 8-10/10.

2. Do so with high success rate - better than 1 in 10. (But I mostly care about #1)

And these happen to be naturals. On the other hand, I've met IRL some big names from PUA community and they sucked, contrary to their image in the seduction community. I don't want to say who, as probably this would ignite a flame war with some of their fans. But I will say these people are not on this forum.

BTW That's how I got sick of PUA community long ago, and formed sort of "pro-game, pro-natural, anti-PUA community" beliefs and started hanging out with naturals. Now I've came here out of curiosity about how does the PUA community look like these days.

As for the "why can’t someone who intentionally studied this craft can’t top them?", I'm not saying it's impossible. It's just that I haven't ever seen such a case, despite meeting some supposedly elite PUAs.

I did watch and think about it a lot and my opinion is that naturals have much better "emotional integration", are more "emotionally smooth" which gives them better vibe/emotional contagion/state transfer, while PUAs generally have something "artificial", "emotionally wrong" in them.

My observations are largely similar to what @Gunwitch has written about "sexual state" - but in broader sense, not just sexual one.

In general, controlling for passive factors like looks, status, etc. when “naturals” get better approach-to-lay it’s mainly because 1) they choose their approaches differently and generally more selectively and 2) they’re more likely to be approaching in environments where there is some kind of social frame, or where they know they tend to do well.

These factors often play a role, but I think the main difference is better Inner Game, giving them better vibe/emotional contagion/state transfer. PUAs I've seen almost always have either poor or mediocre vibe. (Which includes "fake happy" vibe.)


Many (not all) so-called naturals would have a lot of trouble adjusting to an adverse and unfamiliar environment.

That is true (in many, not all cases). I know naturals who get laid left and right in clubs and pubs, but feel uncomfortable with street approaching. 😂

That said, I do think that part of the issue with PUAs as defined broadly by CharmingPsychopath is that beginners and even sometimes intermediates often don’t develop a proper understanding of various things and instead bypass these weaknesses with tech and mechanics, with variable results.

In case of beginners it's understandable. PUA community's "elephant in the room" are people who are doing this for many years, some teaching seduction, some having big names in the community, who suck with women.

Judging by the replies here, I gather that the problem has never been decisively dealt with on community-scale, which is a sad thing.

Edit: From what I’ve seen (mostly college age dudes), “naturals” are often also much more willing to date further down the looks spectrum.

In many cases yes, but the same goes for many PUAs. 🤣 (I mean the women they actually sleep with, not the ones they've approached with no effect.)
 

Chase

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@raiden,

Edit : The reason why I keep harping on about my piss poor fundamentals is because when I hear stories about guys starting out with seduction, experienced guys e.g. Chase, Hector, when they started out knew that women were interested but had no idea what to do about it. That's what motivated them to learn seduction. For me, I'm not having that issue ; it seems like nobody at all is interested. These guys started out hopeless with women but they had opportunities, ostensibly thanks to natural fundamentals. I feel like I could learn every trick in the book - and my coach told me that I'm like an encyclopedia or bibliography for game knowledge - but still fail due to my limited fundamentals. Attraction is there or it isn't. An approach invitation indicates that it is there. It happens before the approach even begins. We don't discuss here what causes the attraction because it's not useful and almost philosophical, like discharging what causes a coin to come up heads when we toss it (precisely, the velocity, spin, height etc. could cause it, but we prefer to use a probabilistic representation). Whatever it is that causes attraction, call it that 'special something'. What if I just don't have it and am simply unattractive at the most base level?

I commented on this excerpt from you in an article here:


Hope it's useful.

Chase
 

raiden

Space Monkey
space monkey
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@raiden,



I commented on this excerpt from you in an article here:


Hope it's useful.

Chase
What an article. Thank you.

So the points are
-You have seen all kinds of guys get invitations
-The literature says that invitations predict approaches and that a huge number of approaches occurring in experiments/studies were actually initiated by a signal, whether the approacher noticed or not. I remember this from One Date. The literature also tells us that there are general approach invitations, not directed towards any guy. So those are even valid for a guy with piss poor fundamentals.

I definitely have the math brain. I can read social cues but not in a natural way ; I've trained myself to go it. So I probably would benefit from some of your suggested training to spot the approach invitations. Even if I believe that I don't get them, I can start by observing invitations between other people. Male brains can totally be trained to be verbal. Look at Bram Stoker, for example.

Well, I still don't know why my results with women are so awful but I'm reasonably convinced that lack of approach invitations isn't it. I'm still philosophising about what that 'special something' is that makes some guys attractive and some guys not. Recall that Hector, before he learned any game or social dynamics, and back when he was just a video game guy, had a female orbiter who wanted him as a boyfriend. Most guys fitting Hector's old description will have no female attention and, for such a guy, any approach he does make will effectively result in a "thanks, gotta go" from the woman. Heck, many intelligent, socially savvy guys end up incel. But this is beyond the scope of game and veering on philosophy or biology. Attraction is there or it isn't. Why or how it is there is not really a fruitful or meaningful game discussion.
 

Chase

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@raiden,

Good thoughts here. I hope it's helpful.

One point:

Well, I still don't know why my results with women are so awful but I'm reasonably convinced that lack of approach invitations isn't it.

This is one of those verbal brain / math brain disconnections here... let me put on my math brain hat:

  1. The point is not only about approach invitations. Approach invitations are the primary example of a larger, overarching theme.

  2. The overarching theme is missing signals in general and assuming they do not exist, leading to a "women aren't interested" perception.

  3. Women's signals are a ubiquitous, foundational aspect of both romantic courtship and relational maintenance, including:
    • Women's signals to approach (approach invitations)
    • Women's signals of interest ("keep going" signals)
    • Women's signals to escalate ("move forward" signals)
    • Women's signals to pause or back off ("hold your horses" signals)
    • Women's signals to communicate subtext or thoughts about the environment
    • Women's signals about their relationships with other people present or not present
    • Women's signals about their true (as opposed to expressed) desires in a relationship
    • Women's signals regarding their unmet needs and emotional state in a relationship
    • Women's signals indicating the amount of time one has left with them in a relationship before the "lease period" is up and they can no longer tolerate lack of sufficient forward progress in the relationship

It's probably fair to say that the vast majority of female communication is nonverbal/subtextual.

The better able a man is to read these nonverbal signals and respond to them correctly, the more calibrated he is, the more women feel like he 'gets' them, the better he performs in both seduction and relationships, and the more opportunities he will both observe and receive from women (women, following general operant conditioning rules, being more encouraged to give signals when they feel like their prior signals to a man have been understood / reinforced).

Much of success in seduction and in relationships really comes down to how able a man is to read and respond to women's signals, with men who are highly successful having a very strong intuition for these, able to see them everywhere in the environment all around them, and read them loud and clear in their own interactions with women, versus men who don't see these well and are not as responsive to them (such men will tend to either be spam approachers if they do cold approach or to heavily rely on dating apps, often without much success, or else go chasing after girls who don't want them in social circle, or they will retreat into celibacy convinced that women don't want them. Many guys with enough spam approaches start to notice women's signals and can refine their approaches, but the most heavily male-brained guys often don't even with tons of exposure unless/until they mechanically train themselves to look for and learn to recognize and correctly interpret these signals).

Recall that Hector, before he learned any game or social dynamics, and back when he was just a video game guy, had a female orbiter who wanted him as a boyfriend. Most guys fitting Hector's old description will have no female attention and, for such a guy, any approach he does make will effectively result in a "thanks, gotta go" from the woman.

From having coached a variety of men like this, one of the primary problems they have is a signal responsiveness one:

  • Such guys will occasionally have social circle girls express interest in them, but they don't recognize it as such and the girl soon gives up.

  • Such guys will end up in conversations where they miss repeated signals from girls, at which point girls feel like something is weird or off because they are not being responded to, and make a hasty, awkward exit from an awkward situation.

I have had guys mic'ed up on in-fields and listened to them talk to girls, heard or saw the girls drop several signals to the guy to flirt or move things forward, the guy did nothing but continue to talk the way he was talking, the girl got awkward, then left. Then the guys returned telling me, "See, that's what always happens, the girl's not interested," and I say, "Wait, why didn't you move things forward when she was signaling to you to?" and the guy goes, "Huh?" And I say, "When she uncrossed her arms and tossed her hair at you and moved a little closer and laughed, you needed to move closer to her and reciprocate that interest and openness she just showed you with a touch, or a qualification, or some other reward for that good behavior. If you just stand there like you did she is going to feel like her offering to you was rejected, which is a very awkward feeling. That's why she left."

The easy solution for guys who are missing signals a lot is "just mirror whatever she does" until you really get the hang of it. Pay close attention and mirror. This is good advice for anyone who's learning, really...

But yes, time and again, when I watch guys in-field who claim women aren't interested in them, the big problem they consistently have is that they do not respond to women's signals, which makes things awkward for the girl, who then leaves (feeling like something is wrong or that she was rejected by the guy).

(it's not the only problem. They can have big fundamentals problems too, which you think might be your problem. But even with big fundamentals problems you will still be able to find SOME girls who like a guy... if a guy is finding none at all, it's a sign he is having problems with signal awareness/responsiveness)

Chase
 

raiden

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Well, guys, I just came to update with my progress. It's not good. I counted the number of first dates since from online since last year when I started working with coaches and it's over 20. Nothing to show for it. After counting that I stopped even trying to schedule them.

I have been on two coached daygame sessions. The first one in May was actually not bad and probably better than all the other sessions I've had. I got 2 phone numbers. The women responsed but I didn't get dates. That's a positive because when I approached before, all the way back in 2019, I only got phone numbers through a hard push and they were always duds. But recently I went on another session and for all my opens, I didn't even get to a conversation. The women all said that they had to go or didn't respond to my follow up talk after the openers. This reminded me of what led me to quit back in 2018/2019. You prepare yourself mentally and physically, schedule it in your diary, travel to the approach location and then get less than 2 minutes of interaction over 2 hours. That's the kind of stuff that led to me going home in tears.

I may well stop working with this coach but what can I do now? There's that line to not continue what you're doing and expect a different result, because it would be madness. Well, what can I do? I have no social circle (I'm a miserable git at the worst of times and a stressed out guy at the best) and I've failed in online and day game. Is it now time to cut my losses and move on with my life? I can feel the resentfulness and bitterness coming, and I figure that I have to quit or start to succeed before it gets worse.

Edit : one more thing I'd add is that I must have actually not gotten any approach invitations on my last session. I of course do not notice women's signals but my coach would have noticed them and instructed me to approach the signal bearing women, and the set would have gone ok, if I had actually getting any approach invitations. I must not have been getting them at least on this occasion.
 
the right date makes getting her back home a piece of cake

Warped Mindless

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Well, guys, I just came to update with my progress. It's not good. I counted the number of first dates since from online since last year when I started working with coaches and it's over 20. Nothing to show for it. After counting that I stopped even trying to schedule them.

I have been on two coached daygame sessions. The first one in May was actually not bad and probably better than all the other sessions I've had. I got 2 phone numbers. The women responsed but I didn't get dates. That's a positive because when I approached before, all the way back in 2019, I only got phone numbers through a hard push and they were always duds. But recently I went on another session and for all my opens, I didn't even get to a conversation. The women all said that they had to go or didn't respond to my follow up talk after the openers. This reminded me of what led me to quit back in 2018/2019. You prepare yourself mentally and physically, schedule it in your diary, travel to the approach location and then get less than 2 minutes of interaction over 2 hours. That's the kind of stuff that led to me going home in tears.

I may well stop working with this coach but what can I do now? There's that line to not continue what you're doing and expect a different result, because it would be madness. Well, what can I do? I have no social circle (I'm a miserable git at the worst of times and a stressed out guy at the best) and I've failed in online and day game. Is it now time to cut my losses and move on with my life? I can feel the resentfulness and bitterness coming, and I figure that I have to quit or start to succeed before it gets worse.

Edit : one more thing I'd add is that I must have actually not gotten any approach invitations on my last session. I of course do not notice women's signals but my coach would have noticed them and instructed me to approach the signal bearing women, and the set would have gone ok, if I had actually getting any approach invitations. I must not have been getting them at least on this occasion.
You are putting a ton of effort into something that is getting you NO results. You are a badass for doing what most won’t do… put in the work!

How do you think your life would change if you switched all this effort to building a business and an interesting social life instead? I guarantee that if you can find higher levels of success and then try to talk to women, you will have more success.

Forget women for a while.
 

raiden

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You are putting a ton of effort into something that is getting you NO results. You are a badass for doing what most won’t do… put in the work!

How do you think your life would change if you switched all this effort to building a business and an interesting social life instead? I guarantee that if you can find higher levels of success and then try to talk to women, you will have more success.

Forget women for a while.
I'm not a badass because a badass spends time productively and well. My time has, almost by definition, not been spent productively.

What's so appealing about building a business? It's super hard work and on average pays less than being a salaryman. Chase says so himself. We know that even if it's a very lucrative business, money doesn't buy happiness or interest from women. A few years ago I received a strong bonus at work. The first thing that I thought of doing is trying to go on a sugar dating arrangement. Anyway it didn't work out and it's probably for the best that it didn't.

I'm ****ing miserable and don't get much joy out of things besides movies, food, video games and books. My previously loyal friends have dumped me left and right because things just seem to keep getting worse for me. So now can I build a social life as such a miserable guy?

I just wanted to share intimacy short term and be a family man long term. I alternate between feeling hopeless and really angry that it's not possible for me. That's the resentfulness and bitterness coming through.
 

SexualHero

Cro-Magnon Man
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Most people do atleast 100 approaches when starting before they get a lay. Do that and come back. Reason that your approaches went worse second time could be just random chance, since I presume your fundamentals didn't just got worse all of a sudden for no reason. Daygame is the hardest in my experience, and you have to put in a little more effort to succeed then what you have done. How about approaching each day for a month ? Or 2-3 months ? And then get back to us. Biggest problem I see is your complete lack of results on dates. You say you had another 20 dates since the last time you reported and no results ? I don't think anyone has gotten to the bottom of what is your problem on dates exactly. You did get some great advice, did you apply it ? Post details of some of your dates again, I don't see another option to help you. It is most likely you are still doing something wrong.
 

Will_V

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I have no social circle (I'm a miserable git at the worst of times and a stressed out guy at the best)

And you are wondering why it is you haven't got any women in your life..?

The absolute essence of seduction is the ability to make women feel good, comfortable, and open around you. How can they do that if you don't even like being you?

The obstacle in your way is not women but your attitude toward yourself and your own life.
 

raiden

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And you are wondering why it is you haven't got any women in your life..?

The absolute essence of seduction is the ability to make women feel good, comfortable, and open around you. How can they do that if you don't even like being you?

The obstacle in your way is not women but your attitude toward yourself and your own life.
But then it's a chicken and egg problem. I don't like being me because I'm incel. I'm incel because I can't get women because I don't like being me. But there surely is some way out of this because I'm surely not the first one to have been in this situation.

Edit : also isn't your question misguided? We could use the content of this article to argue that it's totally unimportant whether the seducer likes being himself or not.
 

Spyce D

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But then it's a chicken and egg problem. I don't like being me because I'm incel. I'm incel because I can't get women because I don't like being me. But there surely is some way out of this because I'm surely not the first one to have been in this situation.
Who labelled you incel ?

Tell me something.... Is there any thing that you werent good at initially but became good at due to repetition.

Take for example, no kid knows how to read or write ....but they learn and they get good at it ...

Should little kids / toddlers be labelled as illiterates then ?

I don't know why you have this incel self image .....

I lived the incel life but never labelled myself as one ..... My self labels were barbarian , exiled prince ....they helped me to still keep on improving my life at my lowest of lows .

Brother , just talk to people irl .

You know what's funny ..... That you live in west and are still afraid to approach chicks .

C'mon bro .

I don't live in the west ...and my fear is quite low these days .

For how long do you want to feel pity for yourself . Huh?
 

POB

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Well, guys, I just came to update with my progress. It's not good. I counted the number of first dates since from online since last year when I started working with coaches and it's over 20. Nothing to show for it. After counting that I stopped even trying to schedule them.
Only 20 dates and u giving up?
Sorry to burst your bubble, but when I started, I went to roughly 30 dates before my first lay (and fumbled them all before scoring).
I have been on two coached daygame sessions. The first one in May was actually not bad and probably better than all the other sessions I've had. I got 2 phone numbers. The women responded but I didn't get dates.
This is perfectly ok and expected...02 phone numbers is nothing really.
You prepare yourself mentally and physically, schedule it in your diary, travel to the approach location and then get less than 2 minutes of interaction over 2 hours. That's the kind of stuff that led to me going home in tears.
Wait, so you are going out to do a chore?
What happened to the good old "I want to have fun"?
If seduction becomes a chore, you shouldn't do it.
Women can sense when a guy is not in a good state and desperately trying to get something from them.
I may well stop working with this coach but what can I do now? There's that line to not continue what you're doing and expect a different result, because it would be madness. Well, what can I do? I have no social circle (I'm a miserable git at the worst of times and a stressed out guy at the best) and I've failed in online and day game.
You haven't failed yet.
Sorry, but your numbers are still too low to call it a failure.
Is it now time to cut my losses and move on with my life? I can feel the resentfulness and bitterness coming, and I figure that I have to quit or start to succeed before it gets worse.
And this is just adding pressure to your already stressed out process.
Edit : one more thing I'd add is that I must have actually not gotten any approach invitations on my last session. I of course do not notice women's signals but my coach would have noticed them and instructed me to approach the signal bearing women, and the set would have gone ok, if I had actually getting any approach invitations. I must not have been getting them at least on this occasion.
AIs are a good indication, but not the deciding factor.
Approach when you feel like it, not when you get positive signals.

My guess is your ego is severely bruised, and you are not being capable of dealing with that.
You could start from a different mindset...like "nobody owes me shit!"
And if nobody owes you shit, you have to get out there and take it for yourself.
This alone will shift your whole mentality.

And please, do something fun outside of seduction.
Learn how to dance, join a chess club, there are a million possibilities of doing something you enjoy that can also get you friends and a nice social circle.
 

TomInHo

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Well, guys, I just came to update with my progress. It's not good. I counted the number of first dates since from online since last year when I started working with coaches and it's over 20. Nothing to show for it. After counting that I stopped even trying to schedule them.

I see your problem now. What you have is unrealistic expectations. I know you don’t think this is true but you haven’t worked hard enough and long enough to be good with women

You’re not special, you’re not unique and there’s nothing wrong with you

20 dates is absolutely nothing. Especially if you’re a guy that has zero woman experience and low social skills.

Shit I remember when I first started doing online dating my closing rate was horrible. It was something like 1 in 10 but that was because I was making tons of mistakes. But I was lucky because I had a history of fucking tons of girls from night game in the past so knew that my lack of results wasn’t me per say but my lack of understanding of how to properly run a date

With a lot of dates, repetition and iteration I was able to get that conversion rate from 1 in 10 to 8-9 in 10. Look almost exactly the same but my process for running my dates is vastly different. And it took me hundreds of dates plus lots of failures and lessons to improve my results

Also, you sound like you haven’t made even close to 100 approaches. I mean what on earth did you expect to happen? You think that just by hiring a coach you’re problems will automatically be solved and you’ll become a ladies man overnight?

Sorry my guy, it doesn’t work that way. A coach can only show you what areas you may need to focus on but your results are determined mostly by you

So please… stop the bitching and complaining and put in more reps. The failure will make a man out of you and teach you how to handle rejection

And don’t come back here until you’ve gone on over 100 first dates and made over 1,000 approaches because right now you’re wasting everyone’s time with your negative attitude
 
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Chase

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But then it's a chicken and egg problem. I don't like being me because I'm incel. I'm incel because I can't get women because I don't like being me. But there surely is some way out of this because I'm surely not the first one to have been in this situation.

Sure, that’s where I was for the better part of a decade. Ages 14-21, or thereabouts.

I even told myself the same thing you tell yourself: “I’m not changing my emotions until my life changes. I have every right to feel the way I feel! How else COULD I feel when my life is this way??”

Guess what… no matter WHAT I tried, nothing ever worked. Everything failed, again and again.

I had to hit rock bottom before I finally decided to do the one thing I furiously resisted doing, the feel-good hippie crap of “change your emotions/outlook and then your life will change.” I thought it was the DUMBEST thing ever and could not possibly work. It was unrealistic; just some garbage nonsense! But I didn’t know what else to do at that point, since everything else had failed, so I did that, fully expecting that to fail to.

Turns out, that feel-good hippie crap of “change your emotions and your life will change” is in fact not crap; it is among the wisest advice available to man. You don’t need anything spiritual to make it so; the simple fact of “your emotional state is VERY obvious to other people, and people want to be around positive, successful, can-do people, and avoid like the plague negative, depressed, fatalistic people” is a big part of it, and “people who expect success are just way more likely to respond to opportunities and do the right things to succeed than people who expect failure are” is the other part of it.

Change your emotions, and your life will change:



You can’t fight the uphill one-man battle forever.

Chase
 

StrayDog

Modern Human
Modern Human
Joined
Feb 23, 2022
Messages
723
@raiden
Dude, I made this incredibly thought out break down of sticking points I was seeing in your game, and provided a great deal of methods you could use to start tweeking your technique and move towards getting better results, and what did you do?

You implemented what I offered you on a whopping total of TWO dates, one successful and one not so much, then came to me with the conclusion that the successful one must have just been luck... Rather than celebrating your success, celebrate it, and do everything you can to replicate it, you wanted to focus on your one failure. Would you rather forever choke on the brine of failure than suffer the slings and arrows that come with creating success?

Pardon my forwardness here, but that is a rather wet noodle approach to learning new methods of anything. It's like trying to learn guitar and concluding that music theory doesn't work because you could play one pop song but had trouble playing a jazz song.

The successful date you had only failed because your logistics were shit (something I have offered to help you with).

I have said repeatedly that your best bet at us being able to help you improve is to post detailed point by point field reports, which you have yet to do.

It seems to me that you would prefer using this forum as a place to vent your frustrations and psycho dramas, rather than using It to improve your technique.

While I am happy to discuss mindset and inner game things to a degree, I am not interested in playing pseudo therapy, or wrestling about a fundamental disagreements on game as an effective method of meeting women.

Where are your consistent, detailed, point by point field reports? You want help improving your game, start there. But don't expect everybody to just jump in and help you out right away. It'll take time to develope a consistent and effective process, and that part is entirely on you.

Until then I am out of this thread as I feel that I have provided more than enough for you to go on to start improving.


P.S. I haven't had the time lately to get it together but look forward to a future thread on logistic mapping that will help you with your shit logistics.

Stray Dog out
 
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