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ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

Will_V

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2/22

I'm pausing approaching for a while. There may still be some incidental opportunities here and there, but as far as going out to specifically approach and meet women, I'm done for now.

I've got enough total approaches in over the course of my entire journey - maybe 2,000 total at this point? - covering night game, social circle, and now day game (and maybe online dating, don't remember) that I feel comfortable concluding that I have enough data points to see a pattern: No matter the situation, women are not truly excited to meet me from the get go. Hence all the issues I consistently see, leading to no lays.

This needs fixing. So now I'm going to try as best as I can to find and fix the inner issue(s) causing this. I started seeing a local coach/counselor at the very least to finally get an in-person assessment of my appearance, style, vibe, mannerisms, etc.

After one meeting, he said he definitely doesn't see an issue at all with my appearance with regards to physique, clothing, and grooming.

He did however say that after our initial conversation, it doesn't seem like I'm quite sure of myself or who I am. He said he can't necessarily say that I carry myself with confidence.

A friend in a night time environment also recently commented that when I walk around an establishment, it doesn't look like a confident walk. He suggested to walk with more purpose.

So this is where I'm going to focus my attention and we'll see what comes of it. I really have no idea how to go about this. There's plenty of 30,000 foot concepts out there on inner issues/inner game that make sense, but I'm not finding specific exercises or techniques on how to actually go about addressing them.

I'll post updates as I make progress. Cheers.

Hey man, are you getting sexual with girls? Are you pushing and escalating on dates (I don't mean 'incidental touching', but erotic talk, hard eye contact and wandering eyes, telling her exactly what you enjoy about her)? Are you inviting girls home and getting refused? Have you ever had a girl rebuke you or even bail on you for pushing too hard in a sexual way (rather than something merely awkward)?

Do you ever sit in front of a girl and look at her like she's a little piece of delicious chocolate cake that you're about to gobble up, imagining exactly where you'd start kissing and where you'd end up?

I'm going to go on a bit of a limb here and say that it sounds to me like you've lost the 'sexual' plot when it comes to girls. Things have become all about techniques and keeping the conversation going, rather than hot, heavy desire.

Everything a man does with a girl is about sex. Forget about these 'bromance' type guys that say their girl is their best friend - friendship is for two guys. Even when I've been with a girlfriend of mine, everything from the way I look at her, talk to her, touch her, etc communicates the fact that she turns me on, and she's always got the vague sense that something could be about to happen. Either that, or I'm busy and not paying attention to her. Male/female relationships are about sex, everything else is just filling gaps.

So tell me, when you go out, are you going out to get phone numbers, or are you going out to convey to a woman your desire to ravish her in bed? Because if she does not feel that, the number (if she gives it) is dead, and dates will go nowhere.

How does it feel for you when you express desire to a woman or touch her? Do you feel embarrassment or shame, or does it feel right? Does it feel like something you're trying to pull back and hide, or does it make you want to surge forward and to hell with anyone who doesn't like it (in the sense that, if she doesn't like it, she can get lost)?

Always remember, this is about you, not her. Seduction techniques are all well and good, but at the end of the day, whether you've fucked a woman or just told her that she's cute, the goal is to uncover yourself as a man, to uncover your sexuality, your desire, your spirit of conquest and dominance and extend it out into the world. It's about feeling right and satisfied with yourself and the way that you are facing the world in the short time you've been given here. Regardless of what comes, or what successes or failures occur.

Because when you've finished fucking a girl, you're going to realize that she alone cannot make you happy, she's just one of the many delights this world has to offer. One of the ways that the world enables you to express yourself as a man. She won't change you as a person for good or worse, but only the way that you carry yourself in all the time before and after will stay with you and help you grow.
 
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ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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3/13

After reading a bit more, I think the issue is just neediness. It explains a lot, maybe everything.

It didn't dawn on me previously because I think I misunderstood what neediness is. I thought it was just something like: if a girl rejects you and it makes you feel bad. So I figured that since rejections didn't faze me and I was easily able to move on to the next one, I wasn't a needy person.

Wrong. Neediness can show itself in pretty much everything you do. How you walk, how you approach, how you look at someone, the things you choose to talk about, etc. Even if you consciously try to work on these things in the sense of improving your fundamentals, the neediness is still going to come through until you get that part of your mind addressed.

That's what I'm currently working on and this GC article is incredibly helpful.
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Nearby to what - where she was having dinner or where you live? If it's near where you live does that mean you don't have any chill bars nearby? Or they're closed because of COVID? Having a coffee at 9pm is not ideal, I would have gone for a drink if possible but if that was your only option I guess you had to take it.

What was the vibe like? Were there any high points where she was looking at you excitedly, almost expectantly?

I'd definitely recommend the practice dates.

Also see you've stopped approaching for now. I think when you start again you should ask for specific feedback more frequently. A lot of your updates on the actual approaches don't give enough detail and I think that's a problem - they just say you've "done X amount of approaches but no dice". I think if you have a log of all your approaches/the situation and then chuck it here, people can see the patterns immediately, just like how the feedback you got on your post about the two young girls in the coffee shop immediately highlighted something you were doing wrong that you were then able to immediately correct.
It was nearby to my place, and as a bonus not far from where she was having dinner. Bars aren't/weren't a good option because I don't drink, and neither of us was dressed for a bar. Odd, but bear with me.

The vibe was just conversational. No, no high points like that.

Next approaches/dates probably need to be recorded. If I'm correct that I'm badly looking like a needy mf (see my last post), then we're talking the subtlest of things that's sinking me - things that are very tough to remember even hours after.
 
a good date brings a smile to your lips... and hers

ElderPrice

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Hey man, are you getting sexual with girls? Are you pushing and escalating on dates (I don't mean 'incidental touching', but erotic talk, hard eye contact and wandering eyes, telling her exactly what you enjoy about her)? Are you inviting girls home and getting refused? Have you ever had a girl rebuke you or even bail on you for pushing too hard in a sexual way (rather than something merely awkward)?

Do you ever sit in front of a girl and look at her like she's a little piece of delicious chocolate cake that you're about to gobble up, imagining exactly where you'd start kissing and where you'd end up?

I'm going to go on a bit of a limb here and say that it sounds to me like you've lost the 'sexual' plot when it comes to girls. Things have become all about techniques and keeping the conversation going, rather than hot, heavy desire.

Everything a man does with a girl is about sex. Forget about these 'bromance' type guys that say their girl is their best friend - friendship is for two guys. Even when I've been with a girlfriend of mine, everything from the way I look at her, talk to her, touch her, etc communicates the fact that she turns me on, and she's always got the vague sense that something could be about to happen. Either that, or I'm busy and not paying attention to her. Male/female relationships are about sex, everything else is just filling gaps.

So tell me, when you go out, are you going out to get phone numbers, or are you going out to convey to a woman your desire to ravish her in bed? Because if she does not feel that, the number (if she gives it) is dead, and dates will go nowhere.

How does it feel for you when you express desire to a woman or touch her? Do you feel embarrassment or shame, or does it feel right? Does it feel like something you're trying to pull back and hide, or does it make you want to surge forward and to hell with anyone who doesn't like it (in the sense that, if she doesn't like it, she can get lost)?

Always remember, this is about you, not her. Seduction techniques are all well and good, but at the end of the day, whether you've fucked a woman or just told her that she's cute, the goal is to uncover yourself as a man, to uncover your sexuality, your desire, your spirit of conquest and dominance and extend it out into the world. It's about feeling right and satisfied with yourself and the way that you are facing the world in the short time you've been given here. Regardless of what comes, or what successes or failures occur.

Because when you've finished fucking a girl, you're going to realize that she alone cannot make you happy, she's just one of the many delights this world has to offer. One of the ways that the world enables you to express yourself as a man. She won't change you as a person for good or worse, but only the way that you carry yourself in all the time before and after will stay with you and help you grow.
Hey Will. First, thank you for the lengthy reply.

To your first point, yes I have tried that. I've tried being sexual, I've tried touching (not incidental), I've tried sex talk, I've tried the eye contact/looking at her like a snack idea, and I've invited girls home that have refused.

I don't recall a girl bailing because I went too sexual, unless you count general resistance or refusal. In other words, if a girl is resisting, I'll give it 3 or so attempts and then stop. I'm not going to try more than that and get whacked with a harassment allegation.

To your next point: "when you go out, are you going out to get phone numbers, or are you going out to convey to a woman your desire to ravish her in bed?"

On one hand, my mission each time was to try my best to make sex happen fast. I've never gone out with the mission just to collect phone numbers. Total waste of time. At the same time, it's always been hard for me to adopt the pure 'I want to ravish you' mindset. My thought being: I'm a virgin. I'll do my best in bed but let's be real, I need some experience before I'm doing any ravishing! In other words, I'd feel incongruent and dishonest with myself.

To your next point: "How does it feel for you when you express desire to a woman or touch her? Do you feel embarrassment or shame, or does it feel right? Does it feel like something you're trying to pull back and hide, or does it make you want to surge forward and to hell with anyone who doesn't like it (in the sense that, if she doesn't like it, she can get lost)?"

I like expressing desire and do not feel shame about it. I'd say it doesn't feel entirely right for the only reason being that 99.999% of my reference points are that the girl doesn't like it and doesn't reciprocate. No, I don't want to hide it. If she isn't down for my desire, then she can fuck off.

Agreed with your additional points. See my last point from today. I think it's a neediness issue coming through my body language. It seems to explain everything.
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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3/29

I feel like I've been making some progress correcting some limiting beliefs. I found an exercise online that's been helpful.

The gist is, you think of 5-7 negative thoughts you have, particularly the most common negative thoughts that pop in your head. Then you think positive ways to spin those thoughts. They're not exactly 'opposites' and you don't lie to yourself, you kinda just come up with positive interpretations that a good friend would tell you if you said your negative thought to them out loud.

ex. 'I'm unattractive.' --> 'I'm good-looking and catch girls checking me out all the time.'

Then, you handwrite out the positive thoughts 10+ times or however many times you need before you memorize/internalize them.

I also got very interesting feedback from the local coach/therapist I've seen for a few sessions now. He said:
I think you're way too focused on the outcomes of your dates and interactions, and this is causing you to analyze too much instead of being present. Focusing on outcomes shows itself as anxiety.

I honestly think you have a little bit of social anxiety. Even during our sessions, you never seemed all that comfortable just sitting and talking. Dating is definitely harder for those with social anxiety.

He then proceeded to recommend a local social anxiety program.

This is amazing because I never thought for a second that I may have legit social anxiety. I have never felt 100% comfortable in social situations or on dates, but I always thought this was like 5% discomfort. I never thought it was so significant that a third party observer would say 'dude I think you have social anxiety.'

So now I'm going to try working on this and see what happens. Wish me luck!
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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4/13

I enrolled in an online, social anxiety, CBT course that my therapist recommended. If you do it by the book, it's a freaking 6 month course!

I'm into my second week and so far I'm pretty darn optimistic I'm on the right track here.

It appears I have some very deep and very old negative beliefs when it comes to any kind of socializing. It's that "5% discomfort" I mentioned in my last post. It's so deep that I can't actually tell what the negative belief is. I think it's in the ballpark of 'I'm not good enough.'

I find it really fascinating because I can make friends easily, I can speak in front of a crowd, I can approach and talk to beautiful women..... yet there's still some sort of social anxiety in there that won't and hasn't gone away, even after 1-2 thousand approaches.

And it does provide an explanation for my difficulties with women, particularly hooking women. If I have a little bit of social anxiety no matter what I do, and it's comes across in my body language, well that's going to make it hard to have women be comfortable in my presence and to earn their trust.

Onward!
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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5/1

Definitely making progress with the CBT. I'm getting good at noticing automatic negative thoughts, recognizing their irrationality, then replacing them with positive/rational thoughts, and I'm getting better at doing these live in the field. I can feel my brain changing in many ways.

I had an interaction with a girl last night that was a very clear sign of progress. It was pretty much the first time ever I set a boundary and held firm in this kind of situation (that I'll describe below), despite knowing it would hurt her feelings. It'll probably sound small to you, but seriously this feels like a HUGE step for me.

A couple weeks ago, I met a girl at a dance venue who was very touchy and kept chasing me around to partner dance with me all night. She's also very very much my type. We vibed really well. I liked her a lot. She seemed like a genuine sweet girl. So I go for a close asking for her number and that we should get together sometime outside of dancing. Her mood instantly cools off as she declines, saying that she's currently talking to someone. I persist but she doesn't budge. Translation: She's one of those girls that would love it if you were her hot cool dance buddy but who has no interest in fucking you. Okay, that's fine, no hard feelings, Nexted.

Yesterday I found myself back at that same venue and as soon as I walked in, there she was. She spotted me, came up, said hi, and immediately asked me to dance. In a playful way, and knowing what she's up to, I responded with MY frame of us going out sometime, her giving me her number, something to that effect. She cooled off even more than last time. Like a legit bad vibe here that I really don't like and am not going to reward. So without saying anything, I turn my back, walk away, and find my friends.

She finds me again and again asks me to dance. That's when I say:
"Sorry, not interested. I'm not interested in being your dance buddy. I have plenty of friends and acquaintances to dance with already. I think you're one of the most beautiful girls here, so I would want something more than that with you. If that's not how you feel, then that's okay, I understand. Just not a match."

She couldn't believe I said that. Her jaw kind of dropped. She asked if I was serious, I said yes, she wished me a great rest of my night and walked away.

To show how big this was for me, let me show you what previous Elders would have done:

Elder from a few years ago would have thought to himself:
"Cool! She's giving me so many chances to win her over!"

Elder from a year ago would have thought to himself:
"Eh, I guess we can dance. I'll just use this dance as practice."

Elder today:
"Fuck off."

It's simply a sign my sense of self-worth is improving. I'm building more self respect for my time, my happiness, and my life. It's also a good sign simply that I communicated my thoughts. It would have been easy to just avoid her and avoid the discussion. But I said my thoughts despite the unpleasant feeling knowing that I was going to hurt her feelings. So I guess you can characterize that as I'm also decreasing my considerations of others' thoughts and feelings. Just another way to show that I'm doing better at putting myself first.
 

ElderPrice

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5/4 Possible epiphany

Not gonna lie, I had a setback this weekend. Nothing major and nothing worth describing in detail. I got a little too excited at my growth and went out with irrational expectations. When you do that, you only set yourself up for failure.

This setback isn't an issue. Setbacks are just proof of progress. By definition, you can't experience a setback if you didn't move in the positive direction! Actually, for this reason I was kind of interested in the setback. I wanted to see how I felt and responded.

Anyway, I was piecing my thoughts back together yesterday and I stumbled on the following:

Elder, do you legitimately consider yourself a catch? Yes, I actually do.
Do you legitimately think you're a pretty awesome person for all the progress you've made and for the person you've become and are becoming? Yes, I actually do.
Then dude, Elder, that is a frame. Start IMPOSING THAT FRAME when interacting with people. You're not doing that!

You see, as I've been doing this CBT, one of the things I've noticed is that when I engage in a social interaction with any person, whether a guy or attractive girl, I feel something inside sink like a stone. As noted previously, I've struggled trying to identify it as some kind of fear. Maybe it's not so much a fear as it is a severe loss in belief in one self, or in other words, maybe I'm just dropping the internal frame/belief that I'm a great guy to meet.

Maybe it's not even conscious. Maybe if it's something I've unknowingly been doing so long, it could be mostly just a habit at this point.

So when I thought about this, I realized that when I enter a social interaction, I need to REMEMBER my very positive beliefs about myself, REMEMBER that frame, and to IMPOSE that frame. Don't let habit kick in and let it sink. There's no rational reason for it to sink. You think you're awesome. Simply act that way. You're awesome, you're happy, you're confident in the decisions you're making in your life. ACT THAT WAY when socializing. Let the cup runneth over.

I put this to the test this morning at the gym. For a few weeks I've seen some new girls that have been coming in the same time as me. Today they happened to take the station next to me. I reminded myself of my positive frame, and that was all I needed to walk up to them and introduce myself. The previous times I had too much anxiety to do it. This time I pretty much said 'Fuck it, you're awesome and they'd be lucky to meet you,' and of course that made approaching much easier.

So we'll see how this goes. I'm going to practice hammering this frame home in my head, especially before and during social interactions. The more I can make this automatic, and the even more I can believe in it, I think it'll clear up a ton of issues. It'll help with general anxiety, approach anxiety, being outcome independent, being clear, communicative, and assertive...

This feels like it might be a big epiphany.
 

Will_V

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5/4 Possible epiphany

Not gonna lie, I had a setback this weekend. Nothing major and nothing worth describing in detail. I got a little too excited at my growth and went out with irrational expectations. When you do that, you only set yourself up for failure.

This setback isn't an issue. Setbacks are just proof of progress. By definition, you can't experience a setback if you didn't move in the positive direction! Actually, for this reason I was kind of interested in the setback. I wanted to see how I felt and responded.

Anyway, I was piecing my thoughts back together yesterday and I stumbled on the following:



You see, as I've been doing this CBT, one of the things I've noticed is that when I engage in a social interaction with any person, whether a guy or attractive girl, I feel something inside sink like a stone. As noted previously, I've struggled trying to identify it as some kind of fear. Maybe it's not so much a fear as it is a severe loss in belief in one self, or in other words, maybe I'm just dropping the internal frame/belief that I'm a great guy to meet.

Maybe it's not even conscious. Maybe if it's something I've unknowingly been doing so long, it could be mostly just a habit at this point.

So when I thought about this, I realized that when I enter a social interaction, I need to REMEMBER my very positive beliefs about myself, REMEMBER that frame, and to IMPOSE that frame. Don't let habit kick in and let it sink. There's no rational reason for it to sink. You think you're awesome. Simply act that way. You're awesome, you're happy, you're confident in the decisions you're making in your life. ACT THAT WAY when socializing. Let the cup runneth over.

I put this to the test this morning at the gym. For a few weeks I've seen some new girls that have been coming in the same time as me. Today they happened to take the station next to me. I reminded myself of my positive frame, and that was all I needed to walk up to them and introduce myself. The previous times I had too much anxiety to do it. This time I pretty much said 'Fuck it, you're awesome and they'd be lucky to meet you,' and of course that made approaching much easier.

So we'll see how this goes. I'm going to practice hammering this frame home in my head, especially before and during social interactions. The more I can make this automatic, and the even more I can believe in it, I think it'll clear up a ton of issues. It'll help with general anxiety, approach anxiety, being outcome independent, being clear, communicative, and assertive...

This feels like it might be a big epiphany.

Great to hear that you're growing and developing your understanding of self!

One thing I'd caution on is approaching at the gym. Many pickup guys will tell you to only pick up at gyms that you don't go to regularly. The problem is that if anything gets awkward, you and her will be seeing each other regularly, and she might get defensive and start spreading word or something like that, and then everyone thinks you're just there to pick up.

I tried a pickup at my gym a couple of months ago, it was going well but I made the mistake of trying to push past the boyfriend obstacle. Things never got too weird, but she didn't respond to my icebreaker and next time I saw her she looked a bit uncomfortable when she saw me. If she'd started talking about what happened to other regulars it could have gotten me some unwanted attention.

Generally speaking, for daygame I try to approach in situations where the girl has the ability to walk off and never meet me or be in close proximity again, because I don't want her to feel pursued or trapped after a rejection. If I do approach a girl I might see regularly, I go slower than I otherwise would, being way more social and 'high value' rather than seductive per se, and being far more calibrated to her reactions.
 

ElderPrice

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@Will_V Thank you! Regarding the gym, I could have clarified, I didn't approach those girls like a pickup kind of approach. It was just to say hi and meet them since they're other regulars. I would have had some anxiety regardless of who I was approaching and meeting, guy or girl.

Agreed with your overall sentiment regarding the gym.
 

Will_V

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@Will_V Thank you! Regarding the gym, I could have clarified, I didn't approach those girls like a pickup kind of approach. It was just to say hi and meet them since they're other regulars. I would have had some anxiety regardless of who I was approaching and meeting, guy or girl.

Agreed with your overall sentiment regarding the gym.
Definitely! Social vibe is suitable for anywhere anytime
 

ElderPrice

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Still making slow progress since my last post. I noticed I'm just acting better in little social situations here and there. The clearest example is I recently visited a venue that I haven't been to in a year or two. It was a venue I used to go to weekly. I stopped going for a few reasons, one of them being I was getting too frustrated with the lack of results there.

Upon my return, it was very much the same as I remembered it. Everything I noticed before was still there. But this time I felt different. I felt at peace, confident, and I had a better social sense for all the things I was seeing. As a result, this was the best I ever felt at this venue. I was just comfortable and enjoying myself - not because I've been here many times before, but because I'm a stronger person on the inside.

Unfortunately I still have no lays to report, and getting laid still feels like a big challenge. Specifically, it's still a challenge to find anyone strongly interested in me, meaning for instance, they respond to texts with more than a few short words, and they put in effort to help arrange a date, and thus of course, don't flake.

Two thoughts I have at the moment:
1. A friend came with me to the venue I talked about earlier. What's interesting is that despite me feeling the most peaceful and confident I ever have at that venue before, and despite feeling like I was legitimately having a good time, and despite my recent progress with CBT, my friend said I still had a uncomfortable look on my face! I've heard of Resting Bitch Face, but Resting Socially Uncomfortable Face??

2. I again read through Chase's amazing article When Your Approach Just Isn't Working. I'm still doing a poor job at tailoring myself to any type of girl. I might post about this on the General board as I'm not sure if I understand all the types of girls out there.
 

Will_V

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What's interesting is that despite me feeling the most peaceful and confident I ever have at that venue before, and despite feeling like I was legitimately having a good time, and despite my recent progress with CBT, my friend said I still had a uncomfortable look on my face! I've heard of Resting Bitch Face, but Resting Socially Uncomfortable Face??

Interesting that you mention this. I know for a fact it exists, because I had the same thing back when I had a fair bit of social anxiety (and I sometimes still have to look out for it and manage it). I would feel 'relaxed' but I would be walking along and getting closed off or uncomfortable reactions from people walking by.

I realized this was a thing when I started to make a point of looking at my reflection in a window or bathroom mirror when I got negative reactions like this, because I was thinking "there's no way I'm that bad a vibe!". I was very surprised to find I had very strong emotions on my face, either anxiety or (depending on my state of mind) hostility on my face. And the funny thing was that I felt calm.

This is a very unpleasant thing to experience, because you immediately feel disconnected from yourself and in the moment it's not easy to understand what's going on. But it's also a massive opportunity to understand yourself better and become more integrated.

...

The thing is, when we feel socially anxious, it means there is something in society that we see (usually unconsciously) as a threat, often simply arising from a lack of understanding of what surrounds us or our own place in it. And (also often unconsciously) we try to change our behaviour to somehow appease or dissolve this threat, usually by trying to appear at ease and relaxed, or, failing that, to at least appear eager and enthusiastic to be pleasant and to meet the apparent needs of society.

The problem is that this requires pushing down and repressing the instinctive emotions of aggressiveness and hostility that we naturally experience when faced with a potential threat. When we are generally happy and content with life, it's not hard to push these down and cover them up because our baseline emotion is fairly positive and rationally we understand that these emotions won't do us any good, and the outcome will probably be better if we don't show them.

The thing is, emotions don't disappear, they simply submerge into the unconscious until the thing that causes them is dealt with or gone (which often never happens). And there, especially over a long period of time, they build up until eventually they come above the surface, usually unexpectedly and in a way that is sudden and difficult to manage. Sometimes though, if we manage to stay calm but otherwise do not properly deal with them, they emerge surreptitiously in behaviours or facial expressions in a way that is quite disconnected from our conscious mental state, so that we hardly even know what we are doing and may be surprised at the reactions of others who perceive them.

One way that I could diagnose when this was happening was when my state of calmness had a certain 'dead' feeling to it, as if, rather than simply operating at an exuberant but relaxed pace, as if the machinery of my mind was cut off from its energy source. This I realized eventually was because this energy had gone to something else (my anxiety) which my conscious, apparently calm mind had been made blind to.

...

The question is, if my mind is expressing things outwardly that I'm not conscious of, how am I supposed to control my mind? The answer, in my opinion, is unexpected but very simple.

The truth is that the mind cannot stop expressing its emotions. If you try to block them, they go around the obstacle you put there. If you try to put them in a box and shut it, pressure builds up until emotions leak out of the corners like escaping gas. Emotions cannot be contained.

So the answer (somewhat unintuitively) is to become even more expressive. But this is often very difficult, because we have spent so long habituating ourselves to hold them back under cover. To progress, we need to tease them out, to disassemble and clear away the scaffolding of obstacles that we have spent years building up in an attempt to hold back unwanted emotion.

But why do this? Why not just force ourselves to be what we 'want' to be at any given time?

Think of it like this: you were attached to a horse, and the horse wandered around everywhere dragging you along, and would get spooked and go tearing off in some random direction without your control. But you cannot untie yourself from the horse, and you are not strong enough to force its limbs to do this or that. So instead, you must turn your attention to it, and understand it, and love it, and give it what it needs to be satisfied, and to learn its reality, and to tame it and saddle it so that it becomes the loyal, untiring engine that takes you from one place to another where you want and need to go in life.

...

There was a woman around here where I live that I approached one night. She turned out to be older than I thought, not all that hot and a bit whacky. But we connected a bit, she was some combination of a neuroscientist and psychotherapist and I also have a very keen interest in the mind. So we would often happen to meet eachother and get into conversations.

One time I was telling her about some of my experiences with social anxiety and certain mental obstacles, and we were debating what the solution was for these things. And at one point she asked me right out "what do you think is the answer to these problems, if not <insert some medically acceptable treatment>?". I really wanted to say the truth, as much for myself as for her, and almost immediately I said "self expression". She didn't say anything but thought a lot about it.

Afterward I thought a lot about that too, and I realized it really is the truth. I believe every mental problem, no matter what it is, is a problem of self expression. There are times in our lives when we are faced with terrible dangers and risks, or the sense of time rushing by, but we are at one with ourselves, readily expressing our truth into the world without inhibitions, with every word and action so deeply satisfying the spirit that the outcome hardly even matters. And then there are other times when we feel disconnected and lost, hardly knowing who we are, and the slightest pressure from outside or warning of danger from within our emotions emerges to us as an overwhelming, all-consuming threat. I believe this is the foundation of social anxiety, of depression, and all habitual negative emotion.

And the means to the ideal existence, in my opinion, is by coming to know our unconscious, spending time where we allow all the emotions that are not socially acceptable to come out, whether it is anger, sadness, feelings of loneliness or desperation, to enable them to appear, and then to accept they are there, and then to rise above them not by ignoring them, but by transforming them, by bringing them into a clear, conscious picture of where we are at, and what we really need to do for ourselves to fix the problems that they represent.

...

I don't know your exact situation, of course. For me, the problem was a combination of all the most destructive natural enemies of the masculine mind: lack of undertaking responsibility, lack of realistic and clear identity, lack of self-acceptance and acceptance of the reality of my life, and finally a very deep-seated inhibition based on how I viewed myself in regards to my family when I was growing up, that resulted in a sort of sabotaging of my own ambitions. Not the worst situation anyone's found themselves in, but certainly nothing to be sneezed at or fixed from one day to the next.

There is still a ways to go, but I am deeply satisfied to the extent that I have understood and accepted my problems and oriented my actions, behaviours and habits to counter them, so that my progress is relentless and consistent. And that, to me, is the essence of self-expression.

I hope some of this is helpful to you!
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Joined
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Messages
568
@Will_V - That's a very interesting take on social anxiety. My understanding of it is that it's pretty much just one having negative, irrational beliefs. Your take to me sounds very similar. For instance, why would one have issues with self expression? Because they possess negative, irrational beliefs. Curious for your thoughts on that and how it's similar/dissimilar to your take.

As for my situation, I can only guess what issues are behind my social anxiety. My guess is my #1 issue at the moment is desperation. I don't like that I went girl-less in my youth, I'm still a virgin, and I'm still struggling to get laid despite putting in years of effort. I want to add sex and mutual attraction to my life so badly. I'm sure it's neediness but it doesn't feel like neediness. It feels like a strong want.

Next issue I would guess is a social habit dating back to childhood of wanting to be liked, or always seeking others' approval. I call it a habit because my CBT allowed me to finally identify the issue. So cognitively I know it's an irrational belief. But now that means what's existing isn't a cognitive belief, but a crazy 20+ year social habit that I have to unlearn.

Another issue of the same heft would be that I definitely don't hold as high an opinion of myself as I should. Again, a social habit from childhood: believing that the traits I do possess are worthless, and that the traits others have are valuable and desired. Again, cognitively I've learned to identify that this is irrational. Now it's working through this daily to unlearn the habit. This is what I was referring to a few entries ago when I talked about how I could feel my frame sink like a stone when talking to others. I need to learn to not let my opinion of myself fall the second I start talking with another human being.

Going back to Resting Socially Uncomfortable Face, the only thing I've ever noticed is that when looking in the mirror, at some angles my eyes can look wide, like on-alert kind of wide. Even when I'm fully calm in my own home. So perhaps I should practice keeping my eyes slightly squinted all the time? Besides this, I have no idea what specifically is communicating discomfort. I even asked my friend to be specific and he wasn't able to. Of course this is besides correcting the other issues and the natural increase in comfort that doing so would produce.
 

Will_V

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@Will_V - That's a very interesting take on social anxiety. My understanding of it is that it's pretty much just one having negative, irrational beliefs. Your take to me sounds very similar. For instance, why would one have issues with self expression? Because they possess negative, irrational beliefs. Curious for your thoughts on that and how it's similar/dissimilar to your take.

I believe you are right here but I would point out something I think is very important: I believe there is no such thing as an irrational belief. There are beliefs that are more or less rational based on the amount of information that we have, but declaring a belief as completely irrational is (in my experience) not helpful.

What I found to be one of the keys to unlocking my spirit was to say to myself "this belief may or may not be rational, but I will do what I want to do anyway, because living my life is worth more than the risk".

The reason I say this is because anxiety grows on a foundation of a perception of risk, and in risk there are no guarantees. Something might be 10% probability, but that doesn't mean it won't happen. What is required (and what has the potential to overcome any obstacle) is courage, which is the ability to do something anyway in the face of risk. And to have courage, in my opinion, one requires a certain type of aggression, a righteous anger that simply moves forward against whatever is in the way.

This is something very important: courage and aggression are not different things. I don't think it's possible to be courageous without being aggressive, without believing that whatever you intend to do must dominate over whatever other unwanted possibilities exist, no matter what. There are no victims who are courageous, there are only fighters who are.

For me, the way that I unlocked this was training kickboxing. For a time I did it with an almost fanatical abandon, like several hours a day. I used it to develop my 'inner beast', you know that part of you that when you have a bad day, you look around and want to break something. It was a huge revelation for me, because to accept this part of me and to even enjoy it (without losing control of it) I realized this was the part of me that was locked away from my conscious mind, that was taking my energy but not being allowed to appear.

I want to stress that I'm not an aggressive person by nature, I've only ever been in a real fight once or twice and it was not at all my own doing. Exhibiting aggression is not my nature, even when I am angry I am calm and rational, and I never go around looking for trouble. But to experience anger, real anger, not fake anger or bitchy resentment or 'showy aggression' but the steady, proud, burning anger of someone who values themselves so much that the idea of allowing some random person to mess them around is a travesty, it's an incredibly positive experience, it's soul-cleansing and exhilirating. And it requires accepting the consequences of that anger, the risk that it might make you do something excessive, but that's all part of the process of 'taming the inner beast' that every man must go through.

There is so much bullshit around socializing and psychology, especially when it comes to aggression and asserting yourself. Society wants to paint aggression as something negative when it is the means by which good men find the courage to do what they think is right in the face of risk, for themselves and the people they love. It is like a weapon, it shouldn't be used unless absolutely necessary, but to be without it in the face of danger is a crime in itself. And it's not necessarily physical capability as much as it is a kind of mental outward force that pulls the mind and body along according to the will.

One thing I remind myself of sometimes is, imagine if you have a wife and kids, and someone wants to bend or break your frame? Will you look on the situation with anxiety and wide-eyed fear, or with righteous anger and determination? There are sometimes no second chances, it's not about the ego but about determining the outcome of reality the way it must be.

As for my situation, I can only guess what issues are behind my social anxiety. My guess is my #1 issue at the moment is desperation. I don't like that I went girl-less in my youth, I'm still a virgin, and I'm still struggling to get laid despite putting in years of effort. I want to add sex and mutual attraction to my life so badly. I'm sure it's neediness but it doesn't feel like neediness. It feels like a strong want.

Next issue I would guess is a social habit dating back to childhood of wanting to be liked, or always seeking others' approval. I call it a habit because my CBT allowed me to finally identify the issue. So cognitively I know it's an irrational belief. But now that means what's existing isn't a cognitive belief, but a crazy 20+ year social habit that I have to unlearn.

Another issue of the same heft would be that I definitely don't hold as high an opinion of myself as I should. Again, a social habit from childhood: believing that the traits I do possess are worthless, and that the traits others have are valuable and desired. Again, cognitively I've learned to identify that this is irrational. Now it's working through this daily to unlearn the habit. This is what I was referring to a few entries ago when I talked about how I could feel my frame sink like a stone when talking to others. I need to learn to not let my opinion of myself fall the second I start talking with another human being.

I know it seems a bit off track to talk so much about anger and aggression. But (like I did) you have all the symptoms of the nice guy syndrome, and the aggressive, assertive character is the alter ego that this man must integrate to become whole.

I very, very strongly suggest that you read 'No More Mr Nice Guy' by Robert Glover (also the youtube videos are very good). It's an incredibly good book on this subject and the best one I know. It will tell you things about yourself that you didn't realize existed, and how to transform and integrate them.

Going back to Resting Socially Uncomfortable Face, the only thing I've ever noticed is that when looking in the mirror, at some angles my eyes can look wide, like on-alert kind of wide. Even when I'm fully calm in my own home. So perhaps I should practice keeping my eyes slightly squinted all the time? Besides this, I have no idea what specifically is communicating discomfort. I even asked my friend to be specific and he wasn't able to. Of course this is besides correcting the other issues and the natural increase in comfort that doing so would produce.

Some people might disagree, but I believe that trying to rearrange your own face to be pleasant when you feel anxious is a waste of time (believe me, I tried it for a long time).

What is on the face is representative of what is inside. If you fix what is inside, then the face will change. I only try to manage my perspective while releasing as much tension from my body as possible.

Your body is not there to fight you, and it won't fight you unless you try to make it contradict itself.

Also, if you cannot understand what someone might be reacting to on your face, I recommend going to the bathroom and taking a snap whenever it comes up, so you can see it for yourself.
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
568
7/26 BOOM!

Well that was an interesting week. It was my hottest streak ever in my journey so far, and it included a sexual encounter that we'll say checks the box for losing my virginity.

GIRL #1

This is the highlight of the story. This girl I met a year ago, maybe two (!), and this was someone where we'd bump into each other at a bar every few months. We exchanged numbers but she was always bad about responding and ghosted me a few times. Anyway, we reconnected recently and it was just a little different - presumably because my game was a little more on point. We started texting each other again mainly just trying to plan to be at that same bar, rather than bumping into each other. One major thing I did different was when we said we'd be at different venues that night, I just invited her to come over to my place afterward. It didn't creep her out or push her away. We finally found a night where we both were going to be at that same bar. We met up, danced, flirted, and were into each other. I pinged her logisitics which we were good, and toward the end of the night I just asked her to come home with me. She said yes.

We started making out as soon as we stepped into my bedroom and proceeded to get busy for about two hours. Things I learned from this encounter:
- Some girls can get pretty close to orgasm just by having their tits sucked
- I eat pussy like a champ

Now, I say this 'checks the box' for losing my virginity because unfortunately I still had some dick issues. Elder Jr was just very sensitive to stimulation. He popped upon entering. So Jr was kinda in a vagina, but there still wasn't thrusting POV sex. Discussion on plan of action at end of post.

GIRL #2

Something else I did this week was try to cut out some bullshit in recent posts. In other words, cut back on mental masturbation. Specifically, instead of worrying about open ended shit like 'how to better attract women,' I said to myself: 'Let's focus on something else that's a bigger fix. Your text game still looks nothing like what @Skills recommends. Read his posts over and over until you start texting like how he says. Let's take that from bad to good, rather than taking your attraction from good to a little better.'

I did so, and I've seen noticeable results. Imagine that: Finding smooth ways to bring up sexy, playful conversation topics warms women up and makes them want to meet you! So Girl #2 was a girl I matched with online, implemented Skills' recommendations to a T, and got her number, sexted, and swapped pictures. The story ends here because she's a bit of a ditz and flaked on meeting after me giving her more chances than I care to admit, but that's okay. The lesson learned here is that my texting game was bad. Now it's a little better.

GIRL #3

Met her at a bar. We danced, flirted, I was direct with her about my interest, and at the end of the night I invited her over for an afterparty. She outright said she would, but the logistics weren't there. She was DD for her friend group that night. She counteroffered: I'm going to a different bar tomorrow night and I'm not the DD. Join. I said okay sounds good.

The following night came, we met up... and her mood in typical girl fashion just wasn't the same as the night before. She was much colder, stayed with her friends most of the night, and was way less into dancing than the night before. It didn't work out with this girl, but it was a good demonstration for me that things go better when you are clear, direct, and not ashamed of your feelings and desires. And who knows, there's still potential here for this to turn around at a later time.

Really all these three girls IMO show the progress I'm making as far as being more comfortable with myself and having a greater respect for my desires. In other words, less of a mindset of 'gee I'd really like to get coffee with you sometime,' and more so 'No, I actually don't want to talk over coffee for two hours. I think you're sexy, I want you tonight, and I'm not ashamed to say it, feel it, and try to make it happen.'

DISCUSSION FOR ELDER JR

A benefit from doing cognitive-behavioral therapy is that you teach yourself how to identify anxiety. This is coming in very useful now when troubleshooting Elder Jr. His issue isn't so much performance anxiety in my head, as it is a physical issue. I noticed my posterior chain muscles get very tense. I'm now working on performing while paying attention to keep them relaxed.

I also read a suggestion to try setting a new rule for masturbating: do not touch yourself without using lube. The idea here is to train yourself to recognize that wet sensation and get used to it. When I started doing this, I was able to notice a specific source of anxiety: Upon that first stroke or 'entering' if you will, Jr just has what may be a habit to instantly get tense, for a split second. So, the thing to work on moving forward is to train myself to stay relaxed upon feeling that sensation. Don't let it send a jolt through me. Keep all my muscles calm.

This post is dedicated to @Seppuku and @Mr.Rob for helping me so much early on in my journal, and for putting up with so much of my mental masturbation bullshit. You guys were a huge help, and I still look back at your LONG replies that you spent a lot of time on, and appreciate all you did to help :)

I hope I can keep this momentum going and report many lays in the coming months!
 

Beam

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Joined
Jan 17, 2019
Messages
774
HE DID IT. HE FUCKING DID IT!!!

My man, I have been following your journal for years, you have no idea how happy I am right now. What a great moment this is for you and the forum. Here's to many many more. PARRTTAY FOR EP
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
568
HE DID IT. HE FUCKING DID IT!!!

My man, I have been following your journal for years, you have no idea how happy I am right now. What a great moment this is for you and the forum. Here's to many many more. PARRTTAY FOR EP
You have no idea how happy it makes me feel to read your reply. Thank you Beam!
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Messages
568
8/22 Not happy with my current process. Open to big changes to boost my efficiency/results with women, but not sure what to do.

Lately I've grown frustrated at my process for meeting women. Here's my understanding of how the process for cold approach generally works for anybody:

- You meet a shitload of women each week
- Of those, a small percentage will turn into dates/phone numbers
- A smaller percentage may be down for a SNL
- Of all the numbers you follow up with, only a percentage will respond/agree to meet
- Of those you meet, only a percentage will convert to sex
Basically, if you want sex from cold approach, you have to approach a shitload of women.

I'm trying to meet as many women as possible at night time (without spam approaching) and online. But it's just not yielding enough of anything for the results I want (lots of sex with attractive women, and eventually, a high quality girlfriend). Even though I approach as much as I can, it's not enough. The number of girls interested/hooking is not enough. The number of phone numbers is not enough.

I feel like I spend a ton of time swiping, but the conversion rate there even for a meetup is very low. I've tried adding day game on the weekends but that is my lowest converting style of game, and the volume is so low I'd have to spend literally all day wandering around malls and stores just to get to a useful number of approaches.

All in all, at the rate I'm going, this is only yielding about one girl coming over every 6 or so months.

During the week, all my time is spent at the gym and working. I can't add in more approaching of any useful volume during the week.

But to better play the numbers game, you need more numbers. To get more sex from cold approach, you need to approach more.

But because I need to get in as many approaches as possible, I have little time for new hobbies, or cultivating deep friendships or social circles (ie. How can I go to a friend's small, Saturday night house party? If I don't go out and approach, I'm guaranteeing zero results and effectively tossing a week of my life down the drain - at least, this is how it feels). It's like I'm caught between a rock and a hard place. On one hand, I have to approach as much as I possibly can in order to even have a chance of reaching my goal, and on the other hand, I have no time for anything else that might also be helpful.

What I want to do is boost my efficiency meeting new women. In other words, I want more of them to hook, follow up, chase, and want to see me again, so I don't have to just play a crazy numbers game.

Here's the kind of things I want to see:
- Instead of replying to texts with short statements and no questions, they text longer replies and ask questions about me.
- If they have to flake on a date, they attempt to reschedule
- If it's a social circle girl, she's the one to find me on social media, add me, and message me
- If I'm out and about, women will slowly gravitate toward me rather than slowly move away from me

To clarify, these are just examples I've seen of things that distinguish a girl that is actually into you vs. one that's barely interested, where you have to pull teeth to get anywhere with, and eventually fizzles.

To generate this stronger interest, I know some available pathways mostly based on articles I've read here:
- Hire a photographer that actually knows what they're doing to get as perfect online dating photos as possible (so my profile generates stronger interest)
- Quit my life here and move to one of those best destinations for getting laid. Thailand? (to utilize the foreigner effect)
- Burn money I don't have to go traveling each weekend (to utilize the 'I'm from out of town' effect)
- Quit my night life approaching and try to be a bartender/promoter or something (to utilize the position of authority).
- Quit my day job entirely and switch to something better suited for women (ditto).

Not saying any of this is a good idea. Just saying this current process for me isn't good enough. It feels like I'm wasting my time or spinning my wheels. It feels like I'm trying to get to England in a rowboat. So I'm interested in big changes. Anything to boost my efficiency without having to resort to spam approaching.

Curious for anyone's thoughts or recommendations.
 

samuraijack

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
May 20, 2021
Messages
88
Looks like you already know what you gotta do:

get better game
get more time to game
have more access to hot women

There's probably different ways to accomplish each of these. I haven't read your backstory but if you have no responsibilities tying you down to your location, i would move to a game friendly city and then hustle. By game friendly city I mean volume and hot girls. Not 3rd world countries. Not Thailand.

Dating apps are probably not going to help you that much to your goals.
 
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